Rotella T6 and Schaeffers Moly in Subaru!

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racin4ds

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Hi fellas,

I've long read that the Rotella T6 5W40 flavor does well in the older Subaru's so I finally figured I'd give it a try. My '08 Legacy GT has the 2.5L turbocharged engine with 163k miles. As most Subies it is a little noisy when warm and especially noticeable at drive-thru's etc. However I have noticed now that I am 345 miles into this OCI with Rotella it is much quieter! Overall the engine "Feels" smoother throughout the rev range (its a 5 speed and I do run it to redline regularly).

I wish I had just put the Rotella in and not the Schaeffers Moly to see which actually made such a difference but the combo of the two seem like the holy grail for this particular car. I've owned it for several years and drive it on a pretty repeatable commute daily so I feel I'm pretty keen to notice things in this car. Also noticed today that overall MPG's were up 1.8mpg's according to the on board display which is surprisingly accurate.

I've ran everything in this car from PUP 0W40 to VR1 20W50 as I like to experiment and it is a good test mule. I have to say I think this oil is going back in it from now on though!
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Rotella T6 5w40 in a Subaru in Florida makes sense from a wear perspective. They took about 5,000 Subaru EJ 2.5L engine oil samples, and Rotella beat all others.
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Aug-17-ENG.pdf


Thanks for the link!

Yes, Rotella had slightly better wear numbers, but, it was also the only 40 weight oil listed and the test results shown. I would be interested to see Blackstone include test results from other 40 weights, Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 and 0W-40 FS, for example, to see the difference.

In Figure 9, for the Volkswagen 1.9L TDI, Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 and Delvac 1 5W-40 had the lowest FE numbers, compared to the other 40 weights tested.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to be as calm as possible since you're a fellow Subaru owner and I know you're excited about the new quietness.

It seems some people ignore the comments about UOAs even when directly from the companies who do this on an everyday basis. You have 5234 random samples, from an unknown number of vehicles, in an unknown number of mechanical conditions, with an unknown number of reports from each specific vehicle. You have no info about outliers (numbers or mechanical condition) or other important nuggets to decipher the charts. Trying to determine a "best" oil from 5200 samples with all the unknown variables is silly at best, and if the results weren't so boringly similar, dangerous at worst.

All you can really determine from that chart, and essentially what BlackStone said, is that ALL of those oils adequately protected the various engines each oil was in, and considering you are talking about +/- 2ppm on ANY given wear metal, you're chasing ghosts if you're swapping oils searching for lower wear numbers. 2ppm is essentially "noise" and entirely, utterly insignificant in the scheme of how a UOA is actually supposed to be used. Sure, you have people here that try 17 different oils in a short span chasing wear metals on a UOA, and I promise you they have simply wasted that money. UOA is a trending tool, NOT a mechanical condition indicator. Trending means a minimum of 3 similar length OCIs with the same oil. UOAs are great fun to pore over and "what if", but other than an imminent, already-in-progress engine destruction, about all it is really good for is this:

Given your OC interval (time, mileage, and usage patterns) did the oil: 1. remain in grade; and 2. have sufficient TBN to neutralize acid formation during the OCI. The elements that show up on a UOA are
If the Rotella is quieter and you have a bigger "feel good" in your head, continue to use it. But know deep down that all of those oils were entirely adequate to protect the EJ255/257, as proven by 5k+ samples. BlackStone sums it up best here:

Originally Posted by BlackStone
The difference is just over half a part per million per 1,000 miles, which is almost completely negligible. In a typical engine, a half a part per million of the oil in the sump is such a small quantity that you wouldn't be able to see it without a microscope. To put that in perspective, an Olympic-sized swimming pool holds about 660,000 gallons of water. One half part per million of that volume would equal just over 5 cups of water - that's like mixing half of a 2-liter bottle of Sprite into the pool, and it makes about as much impact on your engine: if you know it's there, it might bother you, but realistically, you'll never notice the difference.
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
I'm going to be as calm as possible since you're a fellow Subaru owner and I know you're excited about the new quietness.

It seems some people ignore the comments about UOAs even when directly from the companies who do this on an everyday basis. You have 5234 random samples, from an unknown number of vehicles, in an unknown number of mechanical conditions, with an unknown number of reports from each specific vehicle. You have no info about outliers (numbers or mechanical condition) or other important nuggets to decipher the charts. Trying to determine a "best" oil from 5200 samples with all the unknown variables is silly at best, and if the results weren't so boringly similar, dangerous at worst.

All you can really determine from that chart, and essentially what BlackStone said, is that ALL of those oils adequately protected the various engines each oil was in, and considering you are talking about +/- 2ppm on ANY given wear metal, you're chasing ghosts if you're swapping oils searching for lower wear numbers. 2ppm is essentially "noise" and entirely, utterly insignificant in the scheme of how a UOA is actually supposed to be used. Sure, you have people here that try 17 different oils in a short span chasing wear metals on a UOA, and I promise you they have simply wasted that money. UOA is a trending tool, NOT a mechanical condition indicator. Trending means a minimum of 3 similar length OCIs with the same oil. UOAs are great fun to pore over and "what if", but other than an imminent, already-in-progress engine destruction, about all it is really good for is this:

Given your OC interval (time, mileage, and usage patterns) did the oil: 1. remain in grade; and 2. have sufficient TBN to neutralize acid formation during the OCI. The elements that show up on a UOA are
If the Rotella is quieter and you have a bigger "feel good" in your head, continue to use it. But know deep down that all of those oils were entirely adequate to protect the EJ255/257, as proven by 5k+ samples. BlackStone sums it up best here:

Originally Posted by BlackStone
The difference is just over half a part per million per 1,000 miles, which is almost completely negligible. In a typical engine, a half a part per million of the oil in the sump is such a small quantity that you wouldn't be able to see it without a microscope. To put that in perspective, an Olympic-sized swimming pool holds about 660,000 gallons of water. One half part per million of that volume would equal just over 5 cups of water - that's like mixing half of a 2-liter bottle of Sprite into the pool, and it makes about as much impact on your engine: if you know it's there, it might bother you, but realistically, you'll never notice the difference.


Bingo!
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
I'm going to be as calm as possible since you're a fellow Subaru owner and I know you're excited about the new quietness.

It seems some people ignore the comments about UOAs even when directly from the companies who do this on an everyday basis. You have 5234 random samples, from an unknown number of vehicles, in an unknown number of mechanical conditions, with an unknown number of reports from each specific vehicle. You have no info about outliers (numbers or mechanical condition) or other important nuggets to decipher the charts. Trying to determine a "best" oil from 5200 samples with all the unknown variables is silly at best, and if the results weren't so boringly similar, dangerous at worst.

All you can really determine from that chart, and essentially what BlackStone said, is that ALL of those oils adequately protected the various engines each oil was in, and considering you are talking about +/- 2ppm on ANY given wear metal, you're chasing ghosts if you're swapping oils searching for lower wear numbers. 2ppm is essentially "noise" and entirely, utterly insignificant in the scheme of how a UOA is actually supposed to be used. Sure, you have people here that try 17 different oils in a short span chasing wear metals on a UOA, and I promise you they have simply wasted that money. UOA is a trending tool, NOT a mechanical condition indicator. Trending means a minimum of 3 similar length OCIs with the same oil. UOAs are great fun to pore over and "what if", but other than an imminent, already-in-progress engine destruction, about all it is really good for is this:

Given your OC interval (time, mileage, and usage patterns) did the oil: 1. remain in grade; and 2. have sufficient TBN to neutralize acid formation during the OCI. The elements that show up on a UOA are
If the Rotella is quieter and you have a bigger "feel good" in your head, continue to use it. But know deep down that all of those oils were entirely adequate to protect the EJ255/257, as proven by 5k+ samples. BlackStone sums it up best here:

Originally Posted by BlackStone
The difference is just over half a part per million per 1,000 miles, which is almost completely negligible. In a typical engine, a half a part per million of the oil in the sump is such a small quantity that you wouldn't be able to see it without a microscope. To put that in perspective, an Olympic-sized swimming pool holds about 660,000 gallons of water. One half part per million of that volume would equal just over 5 cups of water - that's like mixing half of a 2-liter bottle of Sprite into the pool, and it makes about as much impact on your engine: if you know it's there, it might bother you, but realistically, you'll never notice the difference.



Totally get it and I did read all the fine print, I understand this entire thing about UOA's and don't really place much stock in them other than reading material and ways to help my ever so crazy next OCI selection!

I am not a "one oil guy" and I love to try different oils all the time, most of it is anecdotal I know, but I feel that I am very "in tune" with my vehicles and being a long time mechanic and having spent many years building high level engines, I get satisfaction from the "feeling" that a good oil is in my car and when it runs smoothly and is significantly quieter than a previous OCI, I feel that has merit.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
I'm going to be as calm as possible ....
Calmly wrong.

First, 5,000 UOA's is plenty to get all the random variables to average out, revealing truth about the oils. Sample size does this.

Second, you say "oils were adequate". Yet nobody seeks "adequate". We look for an edge. OK, you don't, but we aren't in your group, thats for sure.

There are differences amongst oils. Not always huge, but enough there.

I would say a UOA doesn't tell us about one of the most important things though. It doesn't tell us about piston deposits, which could separate oils even more. That info is buried.
 
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies

First, 5,000 UOA's is plenty to get all the random variables to average out, revealing truth about the oils. Sample size does this.

Second, you say "oils were adequate". Yet nobody seeks "adequate". We look for an edge. OK, you don't, but we aren't in your group, thats for sure.


Hilarious that all your post did was prove my points... the noise of 5000 samples covers up some of the unknown variables, which leaves... the oils themselves. But not knowing if there were outliers (due to a specific cause) WILL skew the data for that given oil. However, when all those samples and OCIs are averaged out, we're talking a HALF PART PER MILLION per thousand miles that separate the "best" result from the "worst". Using a UOA to make a determination about oil choice based on a half-PPM borders on lunacy. Anyone who uses UOAs for a living will focus 98% of their analysis on the two bits of data that a UOA provides with reliability- viscosity and TBN (TAN for gear lubes). The wear metals are a secondary bit of data, and not useful in a snapshot... they need to be trended as oil chemistries can skew the UOA data when changing oil brands or formulas.

And as far as your "adequate" comments, you clearly don't comprehend my comments. UOA, by definition of the test, CANNOT tell you which oil is "better". It can only tell you if there is nothing unfavorable currently going on in the sub-7 micron range. Let's take everyone's favorite whipping boy, Mobil 1. People cry all over the UOA subforum about M1 showing higher iron numbers. Yet tig1 has over half a million miles without incident on M1; which result is correct? Even though I'm no M1 fan, I'd say there's plenty of data supporting the fact that their oil is perfectly adequate when used as intended. Redline OTOH seems to "show" high lead, but I don't see people having destroyed bearings from Redline, either. The only way to definitively prove that an oil is not protecting adequately would be to tear the engine down every OCI and measure every journal, and piston barrel, and cylinder, etc etc. and trend the wear of a certain oil against another. That's obviously not going to happen. Since I'm always interested in hearing new ideas, PLEASE share with us exactly how you use a UOA to determine "better than adequate" or oils that "give you an edge". I'm all ears how you can prove this definitively when using a test that is not intended to assist in determining the answer to your question. Now if you're talking filter debris analysis or analytical ferrography to determine these two things, well, those aren't UOAs.

As far as "you" not being in my group, that would be correct; you obviously don't read many posts in the VOA subforum either, as in the past 3 months I've posted no less than 8 VOAs of oils, including the 3 new Rotella Gas Truck oils. What have you contributed other than noise? I'd say there's much more data to support me looking for an edge (and sharing that empirical data with others) than there is to support your incorrect assumptions about UOAs and what "group" I fit in.
 
Originally Posted by racin4ds
Hi fellas,

I've long read that the Rotella T6 5W40 flavor does well in the older Subaru's so I finally figured I'd give it a try. My '08 Legacy GT has the 2.5L turbocharged engine with 163k miles. As most Subies it is a little noisy when warm and especially noticeable at drive-thru's etc. However I have noticed now that I am 345 miles into this OCI with Rotella it is much quieter! Overall the engine "Feels" smoother throughout the rev range (its a 5 speed and I do run it to redline regularly).

I wish I had just put the Rotella in and not the Schaeffers Moly to see which actually made such a difference but the combo of the two seem like the holy grail for this particular car. I've owned it for several years and drive it on a pretty repeatable commute daily so I feel I'm pretty keen to notice things in this car. Also noticed today that overall MPG's were up 1.8mpg's according to the on board display which is surprisingly accurate.

I've ran everything in this car from PUP 0W40 to VR1 20W50 as I like to experiment and it is a good test mule. I have to say I think this oil is going back in it from now on though!

Interesting. The only oil that made a difference in sound in my car was Red Line. Oddly, 300V wasn't even any quieter than any off the shelf oil. Presume you added Moly E.P. to the RT6?

As to the uoa/ppm debate, I stopped doing them for a couple of reasons. I was trying to determine which oil was "better" based on a few random uoa's and I thought that they would always predict an impending failure. Although lead did shoot up in one of my uoa's, it wasn't enough of a red flag before my turbo bit the dust due to the banjo bolt screens getting clogged (ran the oil too long). Switching to Euro/HDEO at 5-6k mile intervals has worked very well for me since then and I've put on another 100k miles and I still run the banjo bolt screens.

I always like to refer back to Doug Hillary's excellent uoa article:

Quote
Firstly, it is important to realize that you get what you pay for. The most common forms of UOA are limited in their scope. It is a case of if you pay more you get more. So my comments here relate primarily to the "simple" UOAs - the cornerstone of those appearing on BITOG

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine's performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that - UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality - after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool - one of many!

The other parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you - it will tell you about the CONDITION of the lubricant and its suitability for further use. This will enable you to get the maximum safe use from the lubricant saving a valuable resource in the process.


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/
 
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