Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 and JASO MA Requirements

[TucsonDon]

I'm in the process of trying to determine if the new Rotella T 15W-40 with Triple Protection (the new CJ-4 stuff) happens to meet the requirements of JASO MA as well.

Note: I know it does not carry the JASO MA certification. What I'm looking to determine is if the characteristics of the new Rotella meet the JASO MA specification.

Here's what I currently know meets JASO MA:

o API rating -- JASO MA requires SG, SJ, SH, SL or SM. Rotella 15W-40 Triple Protection is rated SM so it meets JASO MA.

o Suflated ash -- JASO MA requires no more than 1.2% of mass. The new Rotella 15W-40 rates 1.0% of mass for suflated ash. Therefore, it meets JASO MA.

o Phosphorus -- JASO MA specified a range of 0.08% of mass to 0.12% of mass. A virgin Blackstone analysis I saw showed 989 ppm of phosphorus, or 0.0989%. It meets JASO MA.

High Temperature High Shear -- JASO MA requires 2.9 mPa-s or better. I read elsewhere the new Rotella 15W-40 has a value of 4.1. It meets JASO MA.

There are four other qualifications to meet JASO MA, and I do not yet know how Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection matches up:

1 - Evaporative loss (JASO MA: 20% max)
2 - Foaming tendency (JASO MA: Seq I - 10/0 max; Seq II - 50/0 max; Seq III - 10/0 max)
3 - Shear stability (JASO MA: 12.0 mm2/s for xxW-40 weight)
4 - JASO T 904 friction test outcomes DFI, SFI and STI (Table 2.1 in the PDF referenced above has the test specifications required for JASO MA)

I have an e-mail into Shell, but I've not yet heard.

Does anyone here happen to know how the new Shell Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection rates on those remaining four qualifications?

(Please don't report on the synthetic 5W-40 ... my focus is really on the new CJ-4 Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection.)

Thanks!

 

[wileyE]

Think Shell might steer you to their ADVANCE line of oils, the Rotella line is marketed as a hdeo. But there own tech people, without coming right and and saying it give rotella the thumbs up for bikes. http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310&page=24

 

[TucsonDon]

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Think Shell might steer you to their ADVANCE line of oils, the Rotella line is marketed as a hdeo. But there own tech people, without coming right and and saying it give rotella the thumbs up for bikes. http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=310&page=24

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Hi wileyE ... Yeah, I'm resigned to the fact the good folks at Shell are never going to say, "We hereby certify our Rotella T HDEO for use in motorcycles." That's just not going to happen. Just like they're never going to bother with the expense and trouble of running Rotella through the JASO MA testing regimen. Just ain't gonna happen, ya know?

What I'm trying to do is "reverse engineer" the Rotella to see if it happens to meet JASO MA, even though they haven't tested it and never will.

Now, that said, I realize that just because an oil meets JASO MA, it still requires it to be certified as such to avoid complications with motorcycle manufacturers who specifically state oil "must be JASO MA." So this little effort on my part here is really just academic. I'm not trying to suggest anyone should rely upon my findings to go against their motorcycle manufacturer's recommendations as to the oil they should use.

My 2007 Goldwing calls for "SG or higher" that does not say "Energy Conserving." It also lists JASO MA, but it's unclear if they're saying "or JASO MA" or "and JASO MA". Whatever ... it doesn't really bother me much ... I'm pretty certain if I change oil regularly and use Honda OEM filters I'm not going to run into any kind of problem where the question is going to be, "Did you use a JASO MA certified oil?"

So, back to my original question ... I'm just trying to find out the technical characteristics of the oil to see if, by chance, Rotella actually meets JASO MA even though it'll never, ever, ever be certified as such.

 

[TimVipond]

I don't know of any motorcycle JASO MA oil that is API SM. I don't know of any motorycycle manufacturer that says API SM is recommended. They tend to use and recommend the much earlier API SG and SH formulations that are obsolete for cars but preferred for motorcycles because of higher zinc and phosphorous levels. If you want to use a low cost Shell motorcycle product, try the Pennzoil Motorcycle oil tested at http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf . Who knows how the Rotella product would perform under the same ASTM test methods.

Many motorcycle manufacturers recommend oils that meet JASO MA. They do not say they must be certified by JASO.

It would be nice if Shell would bring their ADVANCE motorcycle product line to the US, but they really aren't interested or it would have been here 15 years ago.

 

[TimVipond]

TucsonDon,

Check with Honda to see if they have revised their 10W40 preference to 10W30 like they recommend for the 2008 GoldWing. This gives the Wing more performance (I used to blow by them in top speed runs with my 2006 K1200LT. Now they run pretty even). Plus it should improve your mpg. Those Wings need all the help they can get in that area.

After my warranty expires, I may drop down from 20W50 synthetic motorcycle oil to 10W40 synthetic motorcycle oil for the same reasons.

 

[TucsonDon]

Hi TimVipond:

I mentioned the SM rating of the new Rotella simply to illustrate that it meets the requirements of JASO MA. I'm pretty sure there's nothing about SM that's particularly applicable to motorcycles.

The Zinc and Phosphorus levels of the new Rotella 15W-40 are fine:

o Zinc: 1208 ppm
o Phosphorus: 989 ppm

The Goldwing calls for the following oil:

o Pro Honda GN4 4-stroke oil (U.S.A. and Canada) or equivalent motor oil
o API service classification: SG or Higher
o JASO T 903 standard: MA
o Viscosity: SAE 10W-30

(It's not clear if that's saying the oil must simply meet JASO MA or mst be certified as JASO MA.)

But it allows a 10W-40 where average temperatures indicate it. My Tucson temperatures (109 today) suggest the 10W-40. My bike has all the get-up-and-go I can handle, so I getting even more performance isn't a big thing for me.

I've used Amsoil 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil before. It's fine oil. But I'm into more frequent oil changes -- every 3K or so -- so I reluctant to spend $8+ per quart.

 

[SLM]

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If you want to use a low cost Shell motorcycle product, try the Pennzoil Motorcycle oil tested at

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Co'mon Mr. Vipond we went through that same noise a few threads below, it likely that the orginal poster would be stuck with castrol or valvoline and for more cost than a jug of rotella. SM superceeded SL right, so if you have a application of that calls for SL you can use SM. Sooner or later manuals will be updated, manufactures are going to have to give up on specs that are out of date. Its unfair to the consumer.

As far all the new CJ-4 spec goes, people seem to be using it just fine from the posts I have read around here lately. For the worrywarts, check out the syn 5w40. Rotella didn't come out with the new spec for the syn, back when they changed over the the 15w40 dino. The syn sells slower due to cost. CI-4 spec proved itself over the years.

 

[TimVipond]

I notice the Honda motorcycle oils only list API SJ and JASO MA.

Amsoil has come out with a low cost synthetic oil recommended for motorcycles called 10W40 Synthetic Scooter Oil (ASO). From the Amsoil site: "ASO will perform satisfactorily in motorcycle applications. In fact, the level of performance and protection offered by ASO exceeds that found in conventional motorcycle oils." MSRP is $6.20. They also now make a 10W30 Synthetic Small Engine oil that also meets JASO for $6.05. Prefered Customer price is $4.90 and $4.80 respectively.

 

[TimVipond]

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SM superceeded SL right, so if you have a application of that calls for SL you can use SM. Sooner or later manuals will be updated, manufactures are going to have to give up on specs that are out of date. Its unfair to the consumer.

As far all the new CJ-4 spec goes, people seem to be using it just fine from the posts I have read around here lately. For the worrywarts, check out the syn 5w40. Rotella didn't come out with the new spec for the syn, back when they changed over the the 15w40 dino. The syn sells slower due to cost. CI-4 spec proved itself over the years.

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You can use SM for applications calling for SL in most cars (some disagreement for flat tappet cams), but not necessarily for motorcycles. I have yet to see even in 2008 new model motorcycles or motorcycle oil manufacturers even mentioning SM or CJ4. They do specify the older oil service classifications. It is not a better formulation for motorcycles.

I've only seen G-Man try the CJ4 oil in a motorcycle with a UOA so far. His would probably be a better application with the lower rpm, lower torque, lower horsepower, no transmission exposure, no wet clutch, less weight and his short OCI. But after his UOA he decided to upgrade to a chemical synthetic. With the 2007 Gold Wing, we are talking about over a $20,000 motorcycle running higher rpm, more horsepower, more torque, a wet clutch, sharing a transmission under warranty with certain recommendations and a recommended OCI of up to 8,000 miles. Ask Honda and Rotella if they think the SM CJ4 non JASO semi truck oil would be a good choice and they would cover any lubrication problems. I doubt they would say yes.

 

[TucsonDon]

Honda recommends their GN-4 which is non-synthetic oil that by all accounts I've read is average oil at best.

Honda's statement of recommended oil says "SG or Higher." That would include SM. If they had an issue with SM oils they'd say it.

You mention the Rotella as "non JASO." If you go back to the top of this post, my intent was to determine if Rotella does in fact meet JASO MA. My strong suspicion is "yes." I really, really, really, really, really didn't want to get into an oil debate. I asked a simple question: does anyone know how Rotella's new CJ-4 performed against the remaining 4 JASO specifications I listed? That was it.

You sell Amsoil ... so I understand your particular emphasis here.

 

[TimVipond]

As a retired Shell employee, I doubt any of the Rotella products meet JASO MA. I worked at the Shell Westhollow Technology Center in Houston where Shell US does their oil formualting, testing and development and know they could easily run the tests on site (and probably have) to determine if it meets JASO. The tech people that answer the Rotella line are have also worked in the same group. I've worked with them. They get lots of questions about JASO MA and have no reason not to do the testing. They probably know the answer and don't tell anyone that it meets JASO. They could sell alot more of this if it did.

 

[TucsonDon]

Tim ... thanks, that's more the conversation I was looking to have. You may be correct in that Rotella doesn't meet JASO MA. Before the new CJ-4 formulation, the FAQ at the Rotella website specifically listed the 1.47% ash level as a reason why Rotella did not meet JASO MA. With the new CJ-4 oil, the ash is 1.0% and now falls within JASO MA specifications. At the top of this post I listed three others that do. Of the remaining:

1 - Evaporative loss -- I honestly have no idea how it might perform against this test

2 - Foaming tendency -- ditto. I don't know how important this is for diesel engines. But then again, I'm not so sure I know how truly important it is for gasoline or motorcycle engines.

3 - Shear stability -- I'm going to guess Rotella does okay against this. Shear stability seems to be a strong suit of Rotella, if the UOA's I've seen are any indication.

4 - JASO T 904 friction tests -- On the Rotella website they seem pretty forceful in their declaration that Rotella has no friction modifiers and therefore is acceptable in wet clutch applications. I don't know if it meets all the specific numbers.

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They get lots of questions about JASO MA and have no reason not to do the testing. They probably know the answer and don't tell anyone that it meets JASO. They could sell alot more of this if it did.

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This I find pretty interesting. I hadn't thought about how easy it would have been for Shell to run their oil through the JASO tests in their own lab. They probably do know if it meets it.

My theories:

1 - It comes close, but fails on some element of the test. Rather than admit to it, they keep quiet.

2 - It meets JASO, but they've determined that the marketing message is better left focused directly on trucking. Branding the oil as motorcycle as well as trucks might dilute the marketing message.

Both pure speculation on my part.

 

[SLM]

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As a retired Shell employee, I doubt any of the Rotella products meet JASO MA. I worked at the Shell Westhollow Technology Center in Houston where Shell US does their oil formualting, testing and development and know they could easily run the tests on site (and probably have) to determine if it meets JASO. The tech people that answer the Rotella line are have also worked in the same group. I've worked with them. They get lots of questions about JASO MA and have no reason not to do the testing. They probably know the answer and don't tell anyone that it meets JASO. They could sell alot more of this if it did.

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I find it hard to believe that the people at the research center say to themselves "Hey lets run this test, just for kicks". Thats not how shell makes money. They sell plenty of rotalla as it is, most diesels hold close to two gallons. Lots of companies out there need oil for a fleet. Not to mention they can get people to buy without the rating, why pay for the cert? O

 

[Jaybird]

TusconDon
As you found out, most of the meager JASO T904 standards are covered by the Rotella CJ4 oil.

The evaportative loss may be a big deal if you are considering long OCI's, but for motorcycle intervals, I think it may not be of much concern. (I have the feeling that RT would probably pass the JASO standard easily)

Foaming is a big deal with diesel engines. Foaming can cause the engine to miss out at speeds. Foaming is looked at hard when formulating HDEO's. I can only assume that Rotella T HDEO also takes foaming into great consideration.

As far as the frictional tests...Shell probably could run their own frictional charactoristics tests, but why?
I also think it would be a bad move marketing wise. The Rotella niche is NOT with motorcycles.

And the bottom line is how does this oil feel in your bike engine and tranny? And no test can convince you of anything other than the oopinion you have formed after running the oil.

It is quite obvious that this oil will do no harm in any shape form or fashion to your bike engine.
Give it a try and see how it performs in your bike.

Forget about the commercials and on-line sales pitches.

 

[TucsonDon]

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The evaportative loss may be a big deal if you are considering long OCI's, but for motorcycle intervals, I think it may not be of much concern. (I have the feeling that RT would probably pass the JASO standard easily)

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I'm looking at 3K OCI's ... so I'm not really all that concerned. The beauty of Rotella T 15W-40, at $9 a gallon, is that 3K OCI's is nothing cost-wise. I realize 3K might be too conservative ... and that Rotella T might be able to go 4K or 5K easy. Some of the UOA's I've seen suggest that it might.

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Foaming is a big deal with diesel engines. Foaming can cause the engine to miss out at speeds. Foaming is looked at hard when formulating HDEO's. I can only assume that Rotella T HDEO also takes foaming into great consideration.

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I did not know foaming was a concern in the big rigs. Thanks for shedding light on this.

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As far as the frictional tests...Shell probably could run their own frictional charactoristics tests, but why? I also think it would be a bad move marketing wise. The Rotella niche is NOT with motorcycles.

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I'm nearly certain Rotella T meets these, as answers to questions about motorcycles over on the Rotella website make it clear Rotella is fine for wet clutch applications. And I agree: Shell is focusing on the diesel market. If they happen to sell a bunch to motorcyclists, then all the better. But the marketing focus is diesel.

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And the bottom line is how does this oil feel in your bike engine and tranny? And no test can convince you of anything other than the opinion you have formed after running the oil.

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I've got about 1,000 miles on it so far. So far so good.

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It is quite obvious that this oil will do no harm in any shape form or fashion to your bike engine. Give it a try and see how it performs in your bike. Forget about the commercials and on-line sales pitches.

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The JASO thing is not really a concern of mine. I'm pursuing this because a lot of other bikers post questions in forums about Rotella and JASO. What I'm trying to do is come up with the information to point out how it actually does meet JASO MA (if indeed it does) and then step through each of the qualifications.

Personally, I'm not buying into the marketing hype about motorcycle specific oils and such. My personal belief is a moderately conservative change interval and any decent oil will work just fine.

 

[wileyE]

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Hi TimVipond:

The Zinc and Phosphorus levels of the new Rotella 15W-40 are fine:

o Zinc: 1208 ppm
o Phosphorus: 989 ppm

The Goldwing calls for the following oil:

o Pro Honda GN4 4-stroke oil (U.S.A. and Canada) or equivalent motor oil
o API service classification: SG or Higher
o JASO T 903 standard: MA
o Viscosity: SAE 10W-30

(It's not clear if that's saying the oil must simply meet JASO MA or mst be certified as JASO MA.)

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You could take Hondas MA recommendation as, use MA NOT MB. MB being low friction oil. Rotella as a 40w and not formulated to be energy conserving wouldn't MB. If that makes some kind of sense. Honda also specs 10w30 (which isn't even synthetic, LOL, which if you believe everything in the amsoil marketing pdf, will pit your gears? Guess Honda doesn't know what they're doing and doesn't do any testing, LOL. IMO you've reasoned you choice out pretty good and now like someone else posted, give it an OCI. Think the only time you'd ever get into a warranty haggle, and this is a stretch, would be if you clutch just all of a sudden started slipping. And that might happen if you used some 5w30 with can of super-moly snake sauce, not an out of the bottle non-friction modified oil bottle oil whether it be sm, cj, ci or whatever.

 

[TimVipond]

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I find it hard to believe that the people at the research center say to themselves "Hey lets run this test, just for kicks".

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Actually it happens quite often. I worked there for over 20 years.

If Shell says nothing, they will continue to sell truck oil for motorcycles. If they say it will not meet JASO, they probably wouldn't sell much.

 

[TimVipond]

Maybe a history lesson is in order.

JASO MA for motorcycle wet clutches was not around until API SJ was introduced. This new car formulation was found to cause problems with motorcycle wet clutch slippage. BMW motorcycles and others issued service bulletins not to use API SJ for this and other reasons. This is when JASO MA was introduced as a spec for all wet clutches, whenever API SJ and higher were to be used.

Jaybird - By your statement "It is quite obvious that this oil will do no harm in any shape form or fashion to your bike engine." you are paying for warranty claims? If so, I'd like to put in for 2 wet clutches in my Honda Sabre and Pacific Coast whose clutches slipped when I used Rotella. This is likely one example of why Rotella does not make the same claim and why Honda specs JASO MA oil.

As far as Rotella foaming, this was a known problem in diesel pickup trucks that Shell had to address. If a truck can cause it to foam, what do you think a high rpm motorcycle and transmission will do?

 

[TucsonDon]

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If Shell says nothing, they will continue to sell truck oil for motorcycles. If they say it will not meet JASO, they probably wouldn't sell much.

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They've been saying they didn't meet JASO for some time now. They typically pointed to the ash content as evidence of not meeting JASO. So to my eye they've been pretty clear about the JASO thing.

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JASO MA for motorcycle wet clutches was not around until API SJ was introduced. This new car formulation was found to cause problems with motorcycle wet clutch slippage. BMW motorcycles and others issued service bulletins not to use API SJ for this and other reasons. This is when JASO MA was introduced as a spec for all wet clutches, whenever API SJ and higher were to be used.

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I'll need an explanation as to why Honda today says "API SG or higher." It does not say "SG or SH, but not SJ or higher." You seem to be implying that with SJ and onward that the oil became incompatible with wet clutches. Yet Honda doesn't seem to draw that distinction. Can you help me understand what I'm missing here?

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I'd like to put in for 2 wet clutches in my Honda Sabre and Pacific Coast whose clutches slipped when I used Rotella. This is likely one example of why Rotella does not make the same claim and why Honda specs JASO MA oil.

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Help me understand what part of the JASO MA specification would render a JASO certified oil okay but one that's not certified unacceptable? Based on my reading, it would seem the issue would be the friction tests. Are you saying that Rotella likely fails the three JASO friction specifications? This despite the very firm claims by Shell on the Rotella site that there are no friction modifiers? Seriously, I'm trying to understand all this so if you can piece the puzzle for me I'd appreciate it.

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As far as Rotella foaming, this was a known problem in diesel pickup trucks that Shell had to address. If a truck can cause it to foam, what do you think a high rpm motorcycle and transmission will do?

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If Shell addressed the foaming issue for the diesel trucks, would not that anti-foaming additive work at least to some degree with the motorcycle? By the way, what additive is typically used for anti-foaming? I'd read somewhere that silicone is one anti-foaming agent. Is that the primary one, or are there others?

By the way, the Goldwing is not all that high an RPM bike. It redlines at 6K. In 5th gear at 70mph it hums along at about 2500rpm. 5th gear at 90 is only about 3400rpm. That's about in the neighborhood of my Honda Shadow Spirit. It's well short of the crazy stuff those sport bikes do (10K and above).

 

[wileyE]

correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the foaming or aeration of the oils in diesels that got the most attention when the fuel squeezer (powerstroke) fuel injectors came to market. The oil was compressed in the injector to a bizillion psi causing the fuel on the other side or the device to squirt a finer higher pressure mist than normal injection. If the oil foamed during this event the fuel didn't get a good spray which led to rough running. Usually an oil change made it better. The foaming was localized to the high pressure injector though as I never heard of it starving the bearings with a sump full of foamed oil. Not so sure how the comparison relates to a MC, other than in addressing the problem for diesels (it still happens) they probably improved the anti foam. Which IF that's a concern on the GW, would only make one more comfortable with the hdeo choice, not scare him off. Bike usually foam oil because they don't have the luxury of a big sump volume out of the way of the crank. So the oil gets a whipping from the crank journals. Gears may contribute too. For the record I'm not anti amsoil or pro rotella, just a poster to the thread.