Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 and JASO MA Requirements

[TimVipond]

Honda says both SG or higher AND JASO MA. You say Shell says they don't meet JASO MA. Look at the Honda 4 stroke oils. They say API SJ AND JASO. I know of no motorcycle manufacturer or oil manufacturer that lists API SM AND JASO MA. Look at the Honda 4 stroke oils. They say API SJ AND JASO. The two (API SM AND JASO)seem incompatable or not preferred or surely someone would list both. I also don't see CJ+4 listed by any motorcycle or motorcycle oil manufacturer.

CJ+4 is backward compatable to trucks using CI+4, but because CJ+4 is more expensive, lower TBN and is not recommended for extended oil changes, I don't know of many that use it unless it is specified for the 2007 and newer trucks.

Simply ask Shell if they meet the clutch friction performance for JASO MB, JASO MA, JASO MA1 or JASO MA2 or ask them the results and what test they use. Ask them for the foam test results too. They may not tell you any of this due to confidentiallity, but never hurts to ask. Ask them if they recommend their CJ4+ oil for motorcycles that use the same oil in their transmissions and wet clutches and if they'll pay for any damages resulting from their recommendation.

As far as foaming, the higher operating speeds and gear systems in motorcycles increase the need for good foam control, even more so than in a truck. There are several anti-foam additives used, silicones are one.

 

[TucsonDon]

Several final points, then I'm going to stop pursuing this:

1 - I don't intend to do "extended" intervals.

2 - Shell used to day they didn't meet JASO MA and they cited he ash content. Now they say ash is at 1.0% which falls inside the JASO requirement. Now they are simply silent on JASO, rather than categorically saying "no" to the question.

3 - I do not find it a compelling against SM that Honda's four-stroke oils say SJ and JASO. Over time Honda's GN-4 will list SM. They're probably just working off inventory of SJ.

4 - I have e-mailed Shell. I await their answer.

5 - Will your distaste for SM change when Amsoil lists SM?

6 - There's no doubt Shell will not guarantee payment for damages resulting from their recommendation. So if that's the basis of your argument ... then you win.

So ... I should really just fall back and do what Honda recommends. I'll put in Honda GN-4 and go 8,000 miles with it. Okay?

 

[wileyE]

Tim I'm with you on sticking to the manufactures specifications. Worked on stuff where if you didn't you'd be fired , or worse an equipment failure could mean lives. My dad always said , use car oil in cars, airplane oils in airplanes, compressor oils in compressors, and so on. Probably good advise. So following this whole thing to the letter, taking no chances with oil that may or may not meet specification, He should pick his oil from jaso list of truly CERTIFIED oils. Anything else, rotella, amsoil etc, would be an risky experiment at best. Pick here http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/jaso_e.htm

 

[TimVipond]

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3 - I do not find it a compelling against SM that Honda's four-stroke oils say SJ and JASO. Over time Honda's GN-4 will list SM. They're probably just working off inventory of SJ.

4 - I have e-mailed Shell. I await their answer.

5 - Will your distaste for SM change when Amsoil lists SM?

6 - There's no doubt Shell will not guarantee payment for damages resulting from their recommendation. So if that's the basis of your argument ... then you win.

So ... I should really just fall back and do what Honda recommends. I'll put in Honda GN-4 and go 8,000 miles with it. Okay?

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3. Honda must have a big inventory of SJ. API SL has been around since 2004. But SL is not favored by most motorcycle oil manufacturers. They tend to stick with SG, SH or SJ.
5. My distaste for API SM for motorcycle wet clutch/transmission use will end when I see motorcycle and motorcycle oil manufactures recommending it, or at least allowing it.
6. I think the Honda GN-4, JASO MA, 10W30 as recommended for your bike is a great place to start for those not interested in extended oil changes. However, keep an eye open for the new JASO 10W30's coming out. Compare specs and test data.

Did you notice any differences between the oil that was in your bike before the CJ4 and the CJ4? I and am sure others look forward to your oil analysis. You may have gone where no other winger has gone before.

 

[TimVipond]

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Tim I'm with you on sticking to the manufactures specifications. Worked on stuff where if you didn't you'd be fired , or worse an equipment failure could mean lives. My dad always said , use car oil in cars, airplane oils in airplanes, compressor oils in compressors, and so on. Probably good advise. So following this whole thing to the letter, taking no chances with oil that may or may not meet specification, He should pick his oil from jaso list of truly CERTIFIED oils. Anything else, rotella, amsoil etc, would be an risky experiment at best. Pick here http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/jaso_e.htm

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Amsoil CJ4 diesel truck oil would indeed be a risky experiment in a wet clutch/transmission motorcycle. Amsoil would likely not help out should the oil fail in this application. I don't see any risk with the proper recommended Amsoil motorcycle oil. Their recommended oils have never failed in 35 years. They meet all new vehicle warranties they recommend their products for, even with their extended recommended oil change intervals. They even have their own parts and labor warranty should the product fail in recommended applications. They meet and exceed all API, JASO and other specifications listed, they have just not given money away to companies who will "certify" it, knowing their oils exceed these minimal specifications. Amsoil does have their low end oils certified by API as it is required in some price war bidding. And API Certification is no guarantee of anything as API has shown 1 out of 5 of API Certified oils when taken off the shelf and tested are off spec, and 1 out of 20 are so far off spec that API says they could cause long or short term damage.

 

[Jaybird]

A couple of observations...
JASO MB oil is not a "low friction" oil per se. MB rating only means that in at least one of the three frictional tests, the test number fell just out of the MA range. Even if the test fluid produced better numbers in the other two tests than a previously certified oil.
I would not give too much value on the MB rating.

And JASO requires a fluid be SG ratable or better.
Wow...that's some hard criteria right there!

And I am going to have to see some hard evicence that oils with lowered amounts of zinc and phos. are not up to the task of protecting at least as good as their previous certifications.
It sure seems like those who are actually looking at this are seeing quite a different story than what the marketing crowd feeds us ad infinitum ....
https://shop.sae.org/technical/papers/952344

And yes, Tim...I would cover warranty on using Rotella in a shared sump...or whatever your scenario was...
Give me a break here...there are thousands upon thousands of folks that have tested and are using these oils in real world situations, and the negative results are virtually non-existant. That is why it is obvious they will not harm a bike.

And just because you can cite an anecdote of your own experience does not add much to the picture. With the thousands of others whos experience differs from yours, I would have to conclude that there was more than likely a mechanical issue that was at the root of your failures. A mechanical issue that was unrelated to the choice of engine lubricant.

All the advertizing gobbeldy gook sure doesn't add much to your arguments, IMO.
More will be challanging more of the claims you make during your advertizements. I would start by asking you to provide us some reference to what the API says about certified oils being out of spec, and how it relates to the conversation here?
Or was that just a cut-n-paste from the handbook?

 

[TimVipond]

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I would start by asking you to provide us some reference to what the API says about certified oils being out of spec, and how it relates to the conversation here?
Or was that just a cut-n-paste from the handbook?

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I've posted that several times before. Here it is again for those unable to find it. http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000076081.cfm .

 

[wileyE]

Tim, I wasn't implying that any oil would be risky, was just being a rhetorical wise-asz. Amsoil has great product I'm sure. It's just the thread starter wasn't interested in it.

 

[TucsonDon]

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Did you notice any differences between the oil that was in your bike before the CJ4 and the CJ4? I and am sure others look forward to your oil analysis. You may have gone where no other winger has gone before.

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I bought the Wing new in January of this year. I'm not sure what oil it had in it. If it came from the factory with oil (which I think it did), then it might have had GN-4. If my dealer lubed it, then it probably had Bel-Ray 20W-50 in it since this particular dealership seems to like that oil over others when it does oil changes on the bikes.

At any rate, I took that oil to 700 miles, then swapped it out for Amsoil 10W-40 MCF ... which I very much like and think it's a fine oil. Then at 3800 miles I swapped to Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection (the CJ-4 stuff).

Note: I know the Amsoil had plenty of life on it. I like to change oil ... it's the only mechanical thing I'm capable of doing on my bike.

The only thing I can go by is the feel and sound of the shifting, and the Amsoil definitely improved over the original oil. The Rotella seems to have feel/sound similar in shifting to the Amsoil. But I'll confess my ability to discern small differences in shift quality isn't very good. And more importantly, my shift technique is a bit sloppy some times, so that might lead me to hear clunky or notchy sounds where the oil isn't to blame.

I've ordered my Blackstone sample kit. They say 2 to 3 weeks to get it. By then I should be around 2500 or so miles on the bike. I might push it to a 3000 mile round number and baseline it there. My bike uses no oil, so there should be no "makeup" oil to cloud the numbers I get.

I'll definitely post over on the UOA forum for motorcycles.

 

[G-MAN]

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I've ordered my Blackstone sample kit. They say 2 to 3 weeks to get it.

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Good grief. You should order Terry's deluxe kit. You'll have the sample bottle in 3 or 4 days.

 

[TucsonDon]

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I've ordered my Blackstone sample kit. They say 2 to 3 weeks to get it.

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Good grief. You should order Terry's deluxe kit. You'll have the sample bottle in 3 or 4 days.

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Well ... I didn't know anything about Dyson's Analysis. I'm relatively new to this board and all I see is "Blackstone." So I found their website and contacted them. Sorry.

Plus ... 2 to 3 weeks is about right ... that's when I'll about the amount of miles on it I want. And it'll be when I'm back from three weeks straight business travel.

 

[G-MAN]

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I've ordered my Blackstone sample kit. They say 2 to 3 weeks to get it.

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Good grief. You should order Terry's deluxe kit. You'll have the sample bottle in 3 or 4 days.

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Well ... I didn't know anything about Dyson's Analysis. I'm relatively new to this board and all I see is "Blackstone." So I found their website and contacted them. Sorry.

Plus ... 2 to 3 weeks is about right ... that's when I'll about the amount of miles on it I want. And it'll be when I'm back from three weeks straight business travel.

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I ordered a Blackstone kit about...let's see...18 months ago. I'm still waiting for it. My e-mails to them...I'm still awaiting responses. That's when Blackstone lost me as a customer forever and I went with Terry.

 

[TucsonDon]

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I ordered a Blackstone kit about...let's see...18 months ago. I'm still waiting for it. My e-mails to them...I'm still awaiting responses. That's when Blackstone lost me as a customer forever and I went with Terry.

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I'll give 'em two or so weeks, and if I don't have the kit I'll go with Terry. I found his entry in the "Sponsor" listing ... his stuff looks good as well.

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Sorry to hear about your troubles. That's a bummer.

 

[dwendt44]

"BMW motorcycles and others issued service bulletins not to use API SJ for this and other reasons."
Doesn't BMW use dry clutches?
In which case, moly wouldn't be an issue.
I smell fish.

 

[TimVipond]

Some use dry clutches. Some use wet clutches. Many have sprague starter clutches in the oil bath. Here is the tech bulletin. http://www.gunsmoke.com/motorcycling/reviews/sj_oil/index.html .

 

[TucsonDon]

Received an e-mail back from Shell regarding my questions about Rotella T 15W-40 CJ-4 and JASO MA. The relevant paragraph is:

"That having been said, we believe, with its decreased ash content, that Shell Rotella T Multigrade Oils with Triple Protection Technology MIGHT pass JASO MA, and our formulations group is attempting to obtain approvals to undergo the testing protocol for the specification. If it does, we would indicate that approval in the future."

In fairness we need to honor the author's emphasis on "might" (which I doubly-emphasized with bold). This is no commitment that it does.

One way to read this is that it is definitely not a categorical statement that it fails to meet JASO. Another way to read this is that Shell is clearly aware of the interest in Rotella and JASO for motorcycle applications.

Again ... at 3K I'll do a UOA on the oil from my Wing.

 

[TucsonDon]

By the way, the official product data sheet for the new Rotella T 15W-40 Triple Protection lists:

API SM, SL, SJ, SH

http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/RotellaT(CJ-4).pdf

So it's not just SM, but the earlier ones as well ... noted specifically, rather than implied because SM superseded the earlier ones.

 

[Ryan_in_MN]

TucsonDon--

Wish you luck w/ your oil analysis. I have a 2002 Honda Sabre that I have owned since 2004 (bought w/ 2K on it). I have used Rotella 15W-40 and the Syn 5W-40 almost excusively (24K on it now). Currently have the 5w-40 in, but I think I will put the new 15w-40 in and will get a UOA done. I've been interested in this as well. I personally have no fear in these oils either, since I do 1500 to 3000 OCI....I like to change oil often in my bikes too!!

 

[TucsonDon]

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Wish you luck w/ your oil analysis. I have a 2002 Honda Sabre that I have owned since 2004 (bought w/ 2K on it). I have used Rotella 15W-40 and the Syn 5W-40 almost excusively (24K on it now). Currently have the 5w-40 in, but I think I will put the new 15w-40 in and will get a UOA done. I've been interested in this as well. I personally have no fear in these oils either, since I do 1500 to 3000 OCI....I like to change oil often in my bikes too!!

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Hi Ryan ... thanks for your encouragement. I'm pretty confident that at 3K miles the new Rotella T 15W-40 will have held up okay. 3K is a nice baseline number to start with. If things look good we'll get the input of others on this site to see where we can stretch the OCI safely for the next analysis.

Here's my gut feel:

o Rotella 15W-40 with Triple Protection is going to prove to be a good, solid oil for wet clutch applications.

o Its OCI is probably going to be in the neighborhood of 4K to 6K miles, tops. I might be proven wrong on this ... testing will tell. But any thoughts about going 10K to 15K with this oil in a motorcycle is probably just crazy thinking. That's the realm of the high-end synthetics.

o I think we'll see the wear metals relatively low. But it's going to be hard to determine exactly how the oil is doing in this regard since my bike is relatively new and some wear metals might be normal break in. We'll see what the numbers show. I'll be very interested to see your analysis numbers ... with 24K on the clock your break-in should be done ... we'll get a better handle on the wear profile of this oil.

o For the real screaming high-performance bikes -- the sport bikes that routinely run 12K RPM and above -- the synthetics will probably be a better bet. But for a water cooled V-Twin or a water cooled Wing, the relatively low performance profile of the bikes will likely be a nice match for the Rotella CJ-4 oil.

I'm encouraged by Shell's response that they feel it might meet JASO MA right now, and that they might run the battery of tests to find out. If they do pass, I doubt they'll ever register with JASO and display the square JASO box on their jug. Instead they'll probably just report they meet the specifications and leave it at that.

But who knows ... they might be sensing there's a market worth pursuing with motorcycles. The interesting marketing question is whether they'd rebottle it as JASO-certified motorcycle oil, or stay with the HDEO profile and give it the JASO backing.

 

[TimVipond]

Good luck! Keep us posted!