rotax, ashless or low ash tcwc iso-egd

[wileyE]

I've been reading a bunch of the old posts on this subject, and tcw3. Sorry if I'm kicking a dead horse. But Rotax has changed thier position on this and is now recommending "high quality ashless API-TC" as a suitable substitute for theor own oils. I've checked the operaters manuals for both the aircooled snowmobiles and the watercooled high compression high rpm 440 race sled that uses premix. This represents quite a range of engines IMO. This suprised me as I know for years they insisted on low ash. One guess for the change would be the quality of the ashless dispersants are better? Another guess would be the ring design that is now being used on most their models. For years they used a L ring, dykes style that would be more prone to "sticking". Most the new engines use a flat or semitrapeze style ring. The motion of the newer ring style tend to be somewhat self cleaning. They do still forbid the use of outboard oil and tcw3. That subject can get confusing, because there are oils that are both isoegd+ AND tcw3 AND use a ashless dispersant. For example http://www.klotzlube.com/support/techsheets/KL-302.pdf

In the rotax aircraft engines penzoil aircooled has been a big favorite, low ash. But penzoils tcw3, api-tc rated "multi purpose" ashless oil has been tested and documented as being approved for use. It's well documented in the airwolf files if anyone wants to search it out. They compared a few synthetics also.

Long story but I was once forced to run plain ole 4 stroke motor oil in a autolube system and was suprised that "nothin happened". Realize the twostroke stuff that had been in there was kinda crappy by todays standard. Since then I have experiemnted in my oil injected sleds using some motor oils that have simular viscosity properties to the dilluted injector oils (aprox 20w,>-40 pour). The results have been interesting and positive for the most part. Has anyone else done this, or have any comments good or bad about it? It's not that I don't trust the injector oils out there, I just wanted to experiment with higher flash point oils that are hard to find in the twostroke oils.

 

[blano]

Couple of things. API TC oils are low ash oils. No oil can be both ISO L-EGD and TCW3 certified.

When did Rotax change there position? Last i knew they speced a low ash, tc type lube.

 

[wileyE]

hi blano, you may be right but look at the klotz link I posted. They say they meet the iso and tc low ash specs but then go on to say they use a ashless dispersant. I've looked at quite of few msds sheets on tcw3 and aircooled oils that have the SAME CAS# listed for their dispersant/detergent, not saying it's right but it seems there is alot of it out there. Can't post pics here but I'd be glad to send you a clip from a 02 mxzx440 operaters manual. I'll see if I can look back and see what year they changed the policy. They do qualify it as " quality ashless api-tc" so maybe? there are a couple different packages available to the blenders, the better one being fine for aircooled temps? just a guess.
I'm not really happy with the direction some of the oils are going with "clean burning" and clean exhaust valves being the big sales driver. The formulations are getting diluted down and thinner, less heavy stock, more thin stocks, etc. For example amsoil new interceptor and its "double treat", buy a gallon get a 1/2 gallon of oil, they should lower the price when they water it down like that.

 

[blano]

Without a doubt oils are getting better. Synthetic base oils like PIB have replaced Bright stock in most cases and this is good for performance in all areas. The 03.5 BM Rev I had speced a TC, low ash type oil. and I dont think they have changed their recs since then.
As for domintaor being watered down. I think the double treat advertising is just that advertising. Much like Klotz CLAIMING to meet both tcw3 and egd.
As far as the CAS#s go all two cycle oils use ashless dispersents. Air cooled oils also use mettalic based detergents. besides MSDS sheets are not a really good way to get insite as to what a product has in it.

 

[Hirev]

Welcome to the cloudy murky world of 2 stroke oils.

As far as API TC oils the API washed their hands of 2 stroke oils around 1992. When API discontinued the testing of 2 stroke oils. Their has not been a API tested TC oil built since than. So any oil designed after that could not have been certified or approved by API.

About the same time frame early 90s JASO, Japan equivalent to SAE had become disgusted with some of the very poor 200+ two stroke oils from around the world. Japan built many of the 2 strokes motors used around the world so they had a very healthy interest in what oils were out there.

JASO developed all of the modern 2 stroke oil tests guidelines. ISO basically copped JASO work in testing guidelines. JASO did not care because it was a benefit to the end goal, better 2 stroke oil around the world.

It is interesting to note from JASO. "When a lubricant has succeeded in all the tests, the Japanese Automotive Standard Organization attributes a certificate and an accreditation number that must figure on the container in the form of a determined logo." Notice the accreditation number is mandatory.

Out of many dozens of JASO FC oils I have looked at, that said JASO FC only the Italian made Castrol TTS has this JASO FC number. So what I'm saying is most all 2 stroke oils out there in the US have not been tested by JASO and should not state JASO FC.

So oils like Klotz that say JASO FC have not been actually tested by JASO. It is highly unlikely that the NMMA licensed TC-W3 Klotz would pass a JASO FC since JASO FC oil MUST have Ash in it and TC - W3 must be Ashless.

Problem is no one in the US goes after the misrepresentation on 2 stroke labeling from some of the oil market guys. API does not care about 2 stroke oils. ISO seems to bark much louder than it bites.

A guy is better off using a 2 stroke oil that ranks high by word of mouth than trying to pick one based on the label. Especially when the label is a contradiction in itself. Such as the case of Ashless TC-W3 vs nonashless such as Jaso FC,TC, ISO EGD.

As far as a power valve equipped 2 stroke motor the only thing worse than running it too lean or too hot is carbon build up. I have seen the insides of 2 stroke motors ran on car motor oil and the carbon build up is not a good sight. Eventually a chunk of very hard carbon will come loose from the exhaust port power valve and will be pulled down the cylinder wall by the rings. At that stage it will take out the rings, piston, and cylinder wall.

As far as Rotax and Ashless oils it hard to say if something got lost in translation it happens alot with German/Austrian repair manuals.

Their are some Ashless synthetics that do extend the working (cleaning) heat range of Ashless oils. From some cheap TC W3 type oils. In the ability to clean the ring belt area enough for many but not all 2 stroke motors. But they are not going to be a cheap $16.00 a gallon oil.

Also just because a stroke oil is a synthetic it is no guarantee of it being a clean burning oil.

 

[blano]

Hirev, Citgos aircooled and sea and snow both have JASO #'s on the bottle. Both of these oils are excellant PIB/mineral oil blends and can be had dirt cheap. I bought two cases of sea and snow last year for only $7 per gallon.
As for Klotz, i highlky doubt they are certfied to either spec.
BTW I would like to clear one thing up in regards to ISO, jaso specs. ISO for the EGD standard basicly took the jaso FC test regime and raised the min values. As a result egd oils re of a higher quality than FC oils.

 

[Hirev]

Citgo does know how to make very good 2 cycle oils. Unfortunately Citgo is almost unknown around my area other than some SL car oils.

Citgos FC accreditation does not surprise me. As they have a long standing working relationship with Yamaha. I know Yamaha gets some but not all of their 2 stroke oils in the USA from Citgo. The purple Yamalube 2R has proven to be a very good semi-synthetic oil for many years.

Surprisingly Klotz TC-W3 is approved by the NMMA. here NMMA has made examples in the last 5 years. Out of a few oil company's in the US that claimed TC-W3 and were not. So TC W3 is not taken so lightly as other 2 stroke oils.

From what I understand correct me if I'm wrong. ISO EGD raised the time on JASO M341 piston shirt deposits from 95 minutes to 180 minutes. JASO has now added (2003) JASO FD that does the same. But I have yet to see a JASO FD oil in the US. Europe will most likely see the JASO FD approved oil 1st.

 

[blano]

I have a sneaky suspicion that Citgo aircooled and Yammi 2R are one and the same. Same color, and smell.
as for the differances between ISO L-EGD and JASO FC.The depsoit and torque tests are more extreme for EGD. As for JASO FD. I heard some talk about it a year ago, but nothing since.

 

[wileyE]

What do you guys think about this info, mainly the synthetic vs mineral comments?

What about using white mineral oil as a basestock, like blue marble does?

How about the $12gal pennzoil tcw3 supreme semi syn, labeled ashless but someone on here had it anylized and did infact contain ash? I ask because I know someone that runs a small fleet of polaris sleds on this oil with no undesireable effects?

 

[wileyE]

forgot the link: http://www.legendperformance.com/article5.asp

 

[blano]

I dont have any first hand expiereance with Blue Marble although I am more than a little sceptical after reading their BS riddled website. As for the oil from Legend. I know the owner quit well and have ran the stuff. It seemed Ok, but I only ran 6 gallons wich really isnt enought to form a oppinion.
As for tcw3 oils in Snowmobiles. I ran a Polaris indy sport 340 for 10k on nothing but Evinrude/Johnson boat oil when I was younger. I sold the sled and a another guy rode it for several years without a rebuild. After that i dont know what happened to it. In low stressed applications tcw3 is acceptible, but it good egd/fc oil would be better. Engines tend to also be higher output today than what they where back then and with the emmisions technologies like sdi they run much hotter.

[ November 25, 2004, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: blano ]

 

[FowVay]

I went out first thing this morning and bought a bottle of Blue Marble to use in my leaf blower. I browsed their web page and it didn't offer very much in the way of information but I did a Google Groups search and there was quite a bit of chatter about it on there. Some was very positive and some was negative.

So, I'm going to use it and see how it does. It is kind of expensive at $4.95 for a 13 ounce bottle. Their gallon jugs of marine engine oil were $25.00. If anyone has a Bass Proshop in their neighborhood they should sell the Blue Marble if you want to try it.

 

[cousincletus]

I have been playing it "safe" and using the Bombardier brand oil in my Rotax Seadoo. Label specifically says not to use TCW-3 oil. It's a 2002 model. Check out Amsoil's website. They have a special kind of oil for these type engines.

 

[wileyE]

BM reluctently sent me a msds after having to to sit though 15min of sales hype on the phone, LOL. The light white mineral oil base kinda scared me. But I do know several people who have been running it in mod sleds for a couple seasons now and like it. In some backyard testing I did it flashed into flame real fast (compared to other oils in my shop). This low flash may be why it runs clean? I read somewhere that most twostroke oils try and keep the flash point higher because the product needs to be stored and shipped etc, without special restriction. Maybe Blano can explain this better?

 

[FowVay]

The Blue Marble web page lists three different MSDS's for their 2-cycle high performance oil, their 2-cycle marine oil, and their 4-cycle oil additive.

The MSDS for the product that I purchased lists the flash point as being > 180ºF and a viscosity of being between 40-50 cSt's @100ºF.

So far I have run two tanks of gas through my little Homelite blower and I'm going to take the bottom end cover and exhaust pipe off of the engine this morning to see if there's anything fancy to see. This little blower has been my 2-cycle test engine and it gets opened up a few times per month so I will know if there's anything strange happening.

 

[wileyE]

I talked to a rep (Dave Pardo) from northcoast oil a few years ago and he was telling me the same story with polaris. They were the blender that won the bid and was making polaris's oil at that time. Story was everything was fine with the snowmobiles, at least no problem were reported. The trouble started when polaris started selling aircooled atv's that were run hot in the summer.

 

[FowVay]

Here's what Blue Marble says about their oil ratings:

Blue Marble® High Performance 2-cycle oil meets or exceeds the specifications of JASO FC and ISO EGD.

Blue Marble® Premium Marine 2-cycle oil meets or exceeds the specifications of TC-W3®.

So, they do distinguish the two different applications of water cooled versus air cooled.

Also, here's the ingredients from their MSDS. It appears that they do use the PIB's that Molakule says are necessary for reduced smoke. Here's the list from their air cooled oil:

Mineral oil (they call it white oil): 60-70%
Butene Homopolymer: 10-30%
Heavy paraffinic distillate: 5-15%
Aliphatic Petroleum distillate: 10-20%
Amines, polyethylenepoly reaction products with
succinic anhydride polyisobutylene derivatives: 1-5%

Whew, that was a mouthful.

I've now run a few tanks of this in my little blower and looked inside the crankcase and the exhaust port. So far, the champion in my crude 2-cycle oil comparisons is still the ever popular Mobil MX2T. At $3.49 per bottle, it's a tough act to follow.

 

[Hirev]

quote:

---

Blue Marble® High Performance 2-cycle oil meets or exceeds the specifications of JASO FC and ISO EGD.

---

No white oil base is approved by JASO FC that I have seen. Is there a JASO accreditation number on the bottle now? It does appear they changed their formula or label in the last 2 years they did have 1 size that fits all until recently.

[QUOTEBlue Marble® Premium Marine 2-cycle oil meets or exceeds the specifications of TC-W3®] [/QUOTE] Thats interesting they are not on NMMA 04 list of approved oils I linked elsewhere in this thread. I wonder if they had it tested by NMMA?

IMO a BM white oil base is a step backwards from a good synthetic oil for 2 strokes.

With BM's oil prices you get a dino oil or "Mineral oil (they call it white oil): at 60-70%" at the price of a good synthetic 2 stroke oil.

 

[FowVay]

These ratings came from BM's web page. They don't have any ratings at all on the bottle. Heck, the bottle doesn't even say it meets API TC.

The bottle does list a patent of some kind. Does anyone know how to see what the patent is? The patent number is 5310419 and 5540788.

But as for ratings listed on the bottle,, it has nothing at all. It simply says that it's for use in 2-cycle engines and to mix it at the engine manufacturers ratio. They do warrant the product against damages resulting from proper use.

EDIT: Whoa.. I looked up that first patent. It sounded seriously over my head. It did sound impressive though.

Edit #2: OK, i've read through these two patents and it seems that this company has come up with a way to plate metals (iron/phosphate) with the additives that are in this oil. The example given in the patent was using a steel rod and also using a General Motors engine. My question is whether this plating can occur on a cylinder bore and piston which are constructed of aluminum. The patent does show that it plates ferrous metals in engines such as cylinder bores, camshafts, crankshaft journals, etc... but this stuff is used in 2-stroke engines which may or may not have ferrous liners.

Either way, I can see some benefit to this product if it works as advertised. Apparently the use of mineral oil is just the carrier for the real lubricant.

[ November 26, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: FowVay ]

 

[blano]

When BM first cmae out Mercury marine PROHIBITED its use. This is the first and only time that i have ever heard of a oem doing so.