Err yes, low KV @ 100C spec. Sorry, long day at work and I haven't had any coffee yet...
RL 5w20 - How long?
- Thread starter mattd
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I just don't know if I entirely trust the Lucas numbers?
ok so i have been watching this thread for a while and i gathe that redline 5/20 is more like a 30w? this is very interesting because im partial to using a 5/30 in my f150(its not up for debate) so... if its really a lite 30w then 5/20 redline would be a better choice for me than the 5/30? will it actually perform like a 5/30? i get alot quieter cold starts with a bit thicker oil because i need vct/valve train work. so it seems this would be perfect.
It's not a light 30wt but a fairly heavy 30wt and because of it's low VI more comparable to a light 40wt on cold starts.
RL's 0W-30 would be a much better choice or even RL 0W-20.
RL's 0W-30 would be a much better choice or even RL 0W-20.
well i can get a good deal on RL 5/20 so i think im going to give it a shot. if it rattles on start up ill look into RL 0/30.
is the viscosity of 5/20 at 100 right or is it on the thick side too?
is the viscosity of 5/20 at 100 right or is it on the thick side too?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: mattd
I dont mind paying the extra $ for the oil. I liked the added back and HTHS of this oil.
I can't think of a more inappropriate syn oil for this application partly because of add' pack but mainly due to the too high HTHS vis' and uncompetitively low VI.
I'd change it out at the first opportunity for any of the "true" 0W-20 or 5W-20 oils available.
Two questions:
1) What is the "uncompetitively low" VI? I never did understand the importance of this number. Something about how much the oil changes from hot to cold, correct? Well, at that thin, and with that good an oil, why is it such a big deal? And this oil having an HTHS of a 30 is a GOOD thing, right?
IIRC, you stated Redline 5W-20 was a 5W-30 in everything but name, due to an API quirk. That screams good thing good thing to me ?
2) Why doesnt he try a 0W-30 from RL if 5W-20 isnt all that good, ?
I went with RP in my car due to not being able to buy RL. Unrelated question, does RP have too much ZDDP for a car with a catalytic converter? Does RL?
Originally Posted By: mattd
I dont mind paying the extra $ for the oil. I liked the added back and HTHS of this oil.
I can't think of a more inappropriate syn oil for this application partly because of add' pack but mainly due to the too high HTHS vis' and uncompetitively low VI.
I'd change it out at the first opportunity for any of the "true" 0W-20 or 5W-20 oils available.
Two questions:
1) What is the "uncompetitively low" VI? I never did understand the importance of this number. Something about how much the oil changes from hot to cold, correct? Well, at that thin, and with that good an oil, why is it such a big deal? And this oil having an HTHS of a 30 is a GOOD thing, right?
IIRC, you stated Redline 5W-20 was a 5W-30 in everything but name, due to an API quirk. That screams good thing good thing to me ?
2) Why doesnt he try a 0W-30 from RL if 5W-20 isnt all that good, ?
I went with RP in my car due to not being able to buy RL. Unrelated question, does RP have too much ZDDP for a car with a catalytic converter? Does RL?
A VI of only 145 is pathetic for a synthetic oil as is it's KV40 spec' of 55cSt for a 20wt.
As a consiquence virtually EVERY 30wt you can name is lighter on cold start-ups.
Having a HTHS vis of a 30wt is good if you want a 30wt oil.
The point is RL 5W-20 IS NOT A 20WT OIL since the HTHS vis trumps the KV100 spec'.
Yes RL 0W-30 is a vastly superior oil to RL 5W-20 with it's 183 VI if you want a mid-grade 30wt oil.
But for a 20wt application RL 0W-20 (their lightest street oil) would be a good choice if you want a heavy robust 20wt oil.
Yes all RL oils have a high ZDDP level, IIRC about 1,000 ppm of Phos' but that generally will not shorten the life of a Cat significantly in an engine that doesn't burn oil excessively.
As a consiquence virtually EVERY 30wt you can name is lighter on cold start-ups.
Having a HTHS vis of a 30wt is good if you want a 30wt oil.
The point is RL 5W-20 IS NOT A 20WT OIL since the HTHS vis trumps the KV100 spec'.
Yes RL 0W-30 is a vastly superior oil to RL 5W-20 with it's 183 VI if you want a mid-grade 30wt oil.
But for a 20wt application RL 0W-20 (their lightest street oil) would be a good choice if you want a heavy robust 20wt oil.
Yes all RL oils have a high ZDDP level, IIRC about 1,000 ppm of Phos' but that generally will not shorten the life of a Cat significantly in an engine that doesn't burn oil excessively.
Originally Posted By: electrolover
well i can get a good deal on RL 5/20 so i think im going to give it a shot. if it rattles on start up ill look into RL 0/30.
I use RL 5W-20 in MS, it started great in 16 degree weather during the few days we had it. I think you'll really like it in Texas.
According to the Widman viscosity calculator RL 5W-20 is thinner than M1 0W-30 until about 24° F. What are the coldest temps you see in TX?
Up in the north where temps get 0 and below there are better options, even Red Line 5W-30 is one, but in the south where extreme cold is rare or nonexistent RL 5W-20 is just fine.
well i can get a good deal on RL 5/20 so i think im going to give it a shot. if it rattles on start up ill look into RL 0/30.
I use RL 5W-20 in MS, it started great in 16 degree weather during the few days we had it. I think you'll really like it in Texas.
According to the Widman viscosity calculator RL 5W-20 is thinner than M1 0W-30 until about 24° F. What are the coldest temps you see in TX?
Up in the north where temps get 0 and below there are better options, even Red Line 5W-30 is one, but in the south where extreme cold is rare or nonexistent RL 5W-20 is just fine.
i think the coldest i have ever seen it here was in the teens but that is very seldom. usually the harshest winter is in the 20s at night and up in the 30s in the day, and that is pretty short too.
i have been running 5/30 for a long time with out problems so im not too worried about cold start up. when i was reading the thread it kinda reminded me of GC being closer to a 40w. i would like a 5/20 that was closer to a 30 but from what i read the only thing about RL thats thick is it's cold visc not the actual visc at 100C.
im still thinking of buying it because i can get RL 5/20 for $55 a case, which is less than half the normal cost. IDK we will see what happens if i run it(if i even decide to buy it)
i have been running 5/30 for a long time with out problems so im not too worried about cold start up. when i was reading the thread it kinda reminded me of GC being closer to a 40w. i would like a 5/20 that was closer to a 30 but from what i read the only thing about RL thats thick is it's cold visc not the actual visc at 100C.
im still thinking of buying it because i can get RL 5/20 for $55 a case, which is less than half the normal cost. IDK we will see what happens if i run it(if i even decide to buy it)
Once I run through my stash of RL 5W-20 I would like to try the 0W-30, but it's only going to be thinner than the 5W-20 on cold starts maybe half of the time in my area?
$55 a case? I'd snatch that up in a heartbeat, if you decide not to go with it let me know how I can get it for that price.
$55 a case? I'd snatch that up in a heartbeat, if you decide not to go with it let me know how I can get it for that price.
Except comparing kinematic viscosities of oils with widely different oil chemistries doesn't work and if you want to make it work you have adjust for the differences.
In the case of RL 5W-20, since it has a KV100 spec' that is 20% lower than most oils with a similar HTHS vis', it would makes sense to increase it's kinematic vis spec's accordingly for comparative purposes by about 25%. That will give you a much more representative picture of just how viscous RL 5W-20 really is.
I too have used RL 5W-20 and I can tell you it is noticeably heavier on start-up (higher oil pressure) than M1 0W-40 at temp's in the 5C to 10C range. That's the lowest temp's I have run the oil but it enough to know it is not an ideal winter use oil. I suspect at 0C it will be about 25% thicker than M1 0W-40.
In the case of RL 5W-20, since it has a KV100 spec' that is 20% lower than most oils with a similar HTHS vis', it would makes sense to increase it's kinematic vis spec's accordingly for comparative purposes by about 25%. That will give you a much more representative picture of just how viscous RL 5W-20 really is.
I too have used RL 5W-20 and I can tell you it is noticeably heavier on start-up (higher oil pressure) than M1 0W-40 at temp's in the 5C to 10C range. That's the lowest temp's I have run the oil but it enough to know it is not an ideal winter use oil. I suspect at 0C it will be about 25% thicker than M1 0W-40.
This is a link to the motor oil specification sheet on the Redlineoil website.
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor Oil Product Data.pdf
I have a 2003 Toyota 1MZFE motor that calls for 5W-30.
This motor has Variable Valve Timing (VVT) which uses the motor oil in the phase adjustment of the intake cams.
There is a Toyota chart that most of you have likely seen that lists the 0W-20 and 5W-20 as acceptable for my motor, but I have not seen any TSB or other information in the vehicle specific information for my vehicle.
I am running Redline 5W-30 right now....and it has done well in summer and winter.
I have a case of the 5W-20.
This did very well for me in my '96 3.8L FORD Windstar for a number of years.
In reading the specifications for the Redline 5W-20, the only concern in the specifications listed was the Vis @ 100 degree of 9.1 being slightly low for the 5W-30 specification.
However, as has been stated several times in this thread, the HTHS of 3.3 trumps that...(I want to stay at HTHS of 2.9 or higher to be on the safe side for the VVT).
OK, I have given some background on where I am coming from.
Looking from more of a 5W-30 'ish perspective....
I have a couple of questions.
Looking at the redline chart in the link.
What does the CCS Viscosity Poise mean in all of this?
5W-30 is 60 @ -30 degrees
5W-20 is 50 @ -30 degrees.
I would expect the 0W-xx oils to be thinner at colder temps.....they list them at 5 degrees warmer, so it is not a 1 for 1 comparison.
0W-30 is 56 @ -35 degrees
0W-20 is 55 @ -35 degrees
This is the first thread in which I have seen VI, Viscosity Index discussed at this detail.
I am happy for that, as it has been educational for me.
One thing that I have been thinking....correct me if I'm wrong.
Comparing the VI between a 5W-20 and a 0W-40, is not a direct 1 for 1 comparison of the quality of each.
Should they not be compared to other oils of the same rating?..
Should one not expect the 0W-40 to require a higher VI to do it's job over the greater range expected of it as compared to the smaller range of 5W-20?
That said, I have compared the Redline 5W-20 to other brands specification sheets online, and it does have a low VI.
Going back to the fact that Redline has no VII, Viscosity Index Improvers added, so I would expect the Redline to "stay in grade" better over its service life than many other brands.
http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Motor Oil Product Data.pdf
I have a 2003 Toyota 1MZFE motor that calls for 5W-30.
This motor has Variable Valve Timing (VVT) which uses the motor oil in the phase adjustment of the intake cams.
There is a Toyota chart that most of you have likely seen that lists the 0W-20 and 5W-20 as acceptable for my motor, but I have not seen any TSB or other information in the vehicle specific information for my vehicle.
I am running Redline 5W-30 right now....and it has done well in summer and winter.
I have a case of the 5W-20.
This did very well for me in my '96 3.8L FORD Windstar for a number of years.
In reading the specifications for the Redline 5W-20, the only concern in the specifications listed was the Vis @ 100 degree of 9.1 being slightly low for the 5W-30 specification.
However, as has been stated several times in this thread, the HTHS of 3.3 trumps that...(I want to stay at HTHS of 2.9 or higher to be on the safe side for the VVT).
OK, I have given some background on where I am coming from.
Looking from more of a 5W-30 'ish perspective....
I have a couple of questions.
Looking at the redline chart in the link.
What does the CCS Viscosity Poise mean in all of this?
5W-30 is 60 @ -30 degrees
5W-20 is 50 @ -30 degrees.
I would expect the 0W-xx oils to be thinner at colder temps.....they list them at 5 degrees warmer, so it is not a 1 for 1 comparison.
0W-30 is 56 @ -35 degrees
0W-20 is 55 @ -35 degrees
This is the first thread in which I have seen VI, Viscosity Index discussed at this detail.
I am happy for that, as it has been educational for me.
One thing that I have been thinking....correct me if I'm wrong.
Comparing the VI between a 5W-20 and a 0W-40, is not a direct 1 for 1 comparison of the quality of each.
Should they not be compared to other oils of the same rating?..
Should one not expect the 0W-40 to require a higher VI to do it's job over the greater range expected of it as compared to the smaller range of 5W-20?
That said, I have compared the Redline 5W-20 to other brands specification sheets online, and it does have a low VI.
Going back to the fact that Redline has no VII, Viscosity Index Improvers added, so I would expect the Redline to "stay in grade" better over its service life than many other brands.
well 9.1 is almost a 30w! i think 9.3 is the bottom??? i might give it a shot
As Caterham has said in the past, the better indicator of an oil's viscosity is its HTHS value.
wiswind, you said:
Should one not expect the 0W-40 to require a higher VI to do it's job over the greater range expected of it as compared to the smaller range of 5W-20?
The VI is a measure of how well the oil resists a change in viscosity. I don't think a wide viscosity spread necessarily requires a high viscosity index, nor does the inverse hold true (that narrow viscosity spreads possess small VIs). In fact, the VI can be artificially boosted with additives in group 3 oils.
Below is a more specific explanation I found:
The viscosity index (V.I.) of an oil is a number that indicates the effect of temperature changes on the viscosity of the oil. A low V.I. signifies a relatively large change of viscosity with changes of temperature. In other words, the oil becomes extremely thin at high temperatures and extremely thick at low temperatures. On the other hand, a high V.I. signifies relatively little change in viscosity over a wide temperature range.
Remember that "5w30" is a dual-measurement of the oil's viscosity at two arbitrary temperatures. It's not necessarily representative of the oil's temperature in service. This is why the HTHS value is of far more importance. In fact, the "30" portion is referring to viscosity at 100C/212F. Motor oil gets warmer than that in various hot-spots, like the bearings.
Another thing worth noting is that the viscosity of 0w,5w,10w, etc is only a MINIMUM value.
I'll let Caterham or one of the other resident experts speak up here, as this is all my understanding.
Should one not expect the 0W-40 to require a higher VI to do it's job over the greater range expected of it as compared to the smaller range of 5W-20?
The VI is a measure of how well the oil resists a change in viscosity. I don't think a wide viscosity spread necessarily requires a high viscosity index, nor does the inverse hold true (that narrow viscosity spreads possess small VIs). In fact, the VI can be artificially boosted with additives in group 3 oils.
Below is a more specific explanation I found:
The viscosity index (V.I.) of an oil is a number that indicates the effect of temperature changes on the viscosity of the oil. A low V.I. signifies a relatively large change of viscosity with changes of temperature. In other words, the oil becomes extremely thin at high temperatures and extremely thick at low temperatures. On the other hand, a high V.I. signifies relatively little change in viscosity over a wide temperature range.
Remember that "5w30" is a dual-measurement of the oil's viscosity at two arbitrary temperatures. It's not necessarily representative of the oil's temperature in service. This is why the HTHS value is of far more importance. In fact, the "30" portion is referring to viscosity at 100C/212F. Motor oil gets warmer than that in various hot-spots, like the bearings.
Another thing worth noting is that the viscosity of 0w,5w,10w, etc is only a MINIMUM value.
I'll let Caterham or one of the other resident experts speak up here, as this is all my understanding.
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