Richard Clark's book tour on 60 Minutes

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If inserting "fantasy" into Kay's view wasn't a lie, what is?

Oh yes, anything that doesn't support your extreme liberal agenda.

And the truth is anything that supports it in you view.

I don't see posting all lies you have as being balanced.
 
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If you want good intelligent balanced discussion listen to NPR, they are careful to bring in and develope various viewpoints without the screaming character assasination.

That's a hoot, needtoknow. I listen to NPR a lot at work, particularly the news segment "All Things Considered" strictly for entertainment purposes... because the topics npresented and the way they are presented are always worth a good laugh. Balanced? Not quite. In fact, about 50% of the time not even close. Whatever particular side of the issue that the NPR staff producing the program falls on that will be the point presented with 5 minutes of explanation/extrapolation. The alternative viewpoint gets a few sound-bites at best, selected to make them sound like a fool.

The only NPR program that comes even remotely close to "balanced" is "Just Us Talking". There both sides will get a relatively fair shake presenting their side of the issue, although through sometimes loaded questions the bias becomes quite obvious.

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WHEN THE MESSAGE DRAWS BLOOD, ATTACK THE MESSENGER. DEFLECT, DISTRACT, DISCREDIT AND CONFUSE.

Wow TC. That's an excellent and fairly precise description of the tactics most far left libs/Dems use. You forgot however, to include "first and foremost assasinate the character of your opponent" and "insinuate or just come right out and call your opponent stupid".

As someone else said in another thread, TC you are indeed a one trick pony.
 
"You might have forgotten, but Mr. Clark was pretty much overwhelmed with the notion that cyber terrorism was our biggest threat."

KEITH: Well, actually this isn't the case (see his 7-5-01 "Something really spectacular is going to happen here, and it's going to happen soon." statement), but if it was, might it address Clark's new role beginning Nov. 2001 as SPECIAL ADVISOR ON CYBER TERRORISM? What exactly are you saying, that Clark was focused and dedicated to his role? If so, THAT'S A COMPLIMENT TO CLARK. Ya might want to practice your "attack" skills -- this one backfired on you.
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"That's an excellent and fairly precise description of the tactics most far left libs/Dems use. You forgot however, to include "first and foremost assasinate the character of your opponent..."

FORKMAN: I assume you're talking about how the White House staffers committed a felony by leaking the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame, and then attempted to "character assasinate" her husband, Joe Wilson. This relates to the "distract" and "discredit" strategies, although NEITHER ELIMINATED THE FACT THE WHITE HOUSE STAFFERS COMMITTED A FELONY, RESULTING IN AN ONGOING SPECIAL PROSECUTOR INVESTIGATION.

"Rove and other White House officials described to the FBI what sources characterized as an aggressive campaign to discredit Wilson through the leaking and disseminating of derogatory information regarding him and his wife to the press, utilizing proxies such as conservative interest groups and the Republican National Committee to achieve those ends, and distributing talking points to allies of the administration on Capitol Hill and elsewhere. Rove is said to have named at least six other administration officials who were involved in the effort to discredit Wilson."
So how exactly how is this the work of LIBERALS, Forkman? http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2004/03/waas-m-03-08.html

[ March 23, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by TC:
I assume you're talking about how the White House staffers (CIA ID leaks snipped)...So how exactly how is this the work of LIBERALS, Forkman? http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2004/03/waas-m-03-08.html

You assume too much TC since that was never part of the discussion in this thread until you brought it up. Way to "DISTRACT" or more properly said misdirect/redirect the discussion so that you can completely tapdance around the point made... typical. Way to go with the nonsequiter TC.

And I'm not going to bother to waste my time to dig up nuggets that demonstrate the same about liberals as what you posted in regards to conservatives. Why?... because no matter how many I would find (and I can think of a few right off the top of my head) it wouldn't matter in your mind... the libs/Dems can do no wrong in your eyes. And if they do, I'm sure you'd have some excuse handy to dismiss it or simply find some way to obfuscate the issue being addressed.

Everytime you post something in off-topic related to politics in any way you sound like you're reading off a "talking points" sheet prepared for some liberal pundit who is about to go on tv or radio and attempt to smear their opponent and his side's particular take on the issue... regardless if what is on the talking points sheet is even germane to the discussion.

You seem to have a seething hatred for anything con/Rep and view them as outright evil creatures who are also extremely slow-witted and ignorant. I don't hate libs/Dems. I do think that they are often misguided and all too often argue from a point of emoition and idealism (the"I feel" arguement)instead of actually bother to look into the facts surrounding an issue and the reality of the situation before coming to a well thought out and rational conclusion. Whether I agree or not, I'll still certainly give credit to anyone who bothers to seriously think through an issue instead of just jumping to a conclusion based off of emotion and little else.

Oh and btw, do you have an email address I could contact you at to perhaps keep some of this discussion (and future) discussions off the board so they don't get out of hand and thread have to be locked. Mine's [email protected]
 
Back to topic.
I listened to the 911 Commission Hearing yesterday because of Richard Clark's testomony and of course his book and credibility came up. One striking moment was his opening apology to the victims families, no other official, Clinton/Bush has ever done that, most opening statements have been a sort of "not my fault" theme. It also hasn't taken long for the Bush Administration to continue it's attacks on Clark's credibility. Here's a good viewpoint on those attacks from the New Republic web site, www.tnr.com. They also criticize Clinton Admin too.

From the New Republic www.tnr.com
By Ryan Lizza
Previous critics of the Bush administration have proved to be easy targets for the White House. The Bushies effortlessly dismissed Paul O'Neill with a wave of the hand. "We're not in the business of doing book reviews. I don't get in the business of selling or promoting or critiquing books," White House press secretary Scott McClellan told reporters upon publication of Ron Suskind's account of O'Neill's tenure as Treasury secretary. This worked partly because the media was predisposed to believe that O'Neill was a bit quirky and unreliable--and partly because his accusations about the Bush administration's obsession with Iraq were outside his area of expertise. Rand Beers and Joe Wilson, two other national security whistle-blowers, did some damage to the White House. But by subsequently embracing John Kerry, they made it easy for the administration to paint them as partisan opportunists.

Former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke is proving to be a tougher opponent. He's served presidents from both parties. He says he won't work in a Kerry administration. His foreign policy views in the 1980s and 1990s placed him in the camp of Republican hardliners. He writes warmly of his relationship with Richard Perle. And most of his attacks on Bush are from the right, not the left. He is undoubtedly the toughest critic whose credibility the White House has ever had to undermine; he represents a potent cocktail of nonpartisanship, expertise, and withering criticism aimed at Bush's greatest electoral strength. For the last 48 hours, administration officials have done their best to chip away at Clarke and his case against the president. They've adopted several different tacks--none of which is particularly honest, and many of which are mutually contradictory.

Their initial approach, now discarded, was to argue that Bush actually embraced Clarke--a holdover from the Clinton administration--in 2001, thus demonstrating that the administration was serious about Al Qaeda before September 11. On "60 Minutes" last weekend, Condoleezza Rice's deputy, Steve Hadley, made this case:

**** is very dedicated, very knowledgeable about this issue. When the President came into office, one of the decisions we made was to keep Mr. Clarke and his counter-terrorism group intact, bring them into the new administration--a really unprecedented decision, very unusual when there has been a transition that involves a change of party. We did that because we knew al Qaeda was a priority, that there was a risk that we would be attacked and we wanted an experienced team to try and identify the risk, take actions to disrupt the terrorists--and if an event, an attack were to succeed, to be an experienced crisis management team to support the president.

This approach seemed to overcome the central paradox in any Bush strategy to destroy Clarke: How can you defend yourself from charges that you didn't take terrorism seriously before 9/11 while simultaneously attacking the credibility of the person you put in charge of terrorism before 9/11? Hadley's answer was to point out that Clarke's appointment proved the Bush administration was serious.

But on Monday, once the Bushies had taken a closer look at how devastating Clarke's account was, Hadley's soft approach was abandoned. The new method for overcoming the inconvenient fact that Bush put Clarke in charge of terrorism was to simply write Clarke out of the history of the Bush administration altogether. Instead of Bush's terrorism adviser, Clarke became a weak Clintonite who did little to halt Al Qaeda's rise during the 1990s. If there was one consistent theme to yesterday's attack, this was it. The most intellectually dishonest performance was **** Cheney's emergency interview on Rush Limbaugh's radio show. Limbaugh wondered how in the world Bush could have made this guy Clarke head of counterterrorism. "Well, I wasn't directly involved in that decision," Cheney said. "He was moved out of the counterterrorism business over to the cybersecurity side of things. That is, he was given the new assignment at some point there. I don't recall the exact time frame."

Who could be expected to keep track of such minor details as how long Clarke was kept as counterterrorism czar? Maybe some scenes from Clarke's book would jog the vice president's memory. Clarke was the guy standing in Cheney's office on the morning of 9/11 with Rice in the minutes after the first attack. He's the guy that Condi turned to and asked, "Okay, ****, you're the crisis manager, what do you recommend?" Later in the day he was also the guy standing in between Rice and Cheney in the White House Situation Room. He was the one whose shoulder Cheney placed his hand on when he asked, "Are you getting everything you need, everybody doing what you want?" Cheney might also remember Clarke as the guy who asked Cheney to request authorization from Bush to shoot down any hijacked airplanes. He may also recall him as the man who briefed Bush when the president finally arrived back at the White House. In other words, Cheney neglected to inform Limbaugh's audience that Clarke didn't move to cyberterrorism until a month after 9/11.

Clarke's nine-month tenure as the man in charge of counterterrorism in the Bush administration is being thrown down a memory hole. "So the only thing I can say about **** Clarke," Cheney continued on Limbaugh's show, "is he was here throughout those eight years going back to 1993, and the first attack on the World Trade Center in '98 when the embassies were hit in east Africa, in 2000 when the USS Cole was hit, and the question that ought to be asked is, what were they doing in those days when he was in charge of counterterrorism efforts?"

Rice echoed the memory-hole strategy yesterday, noting on Fox News, "**** Clarke was counterterrorism czar for a long time with a lot of attacks on the United States. What he was doing was--what they were doing apparently was not working. We wanted to do something different." She didn't get a chance to explain how this statement comports with Hadley's insistence that "one of the decisions we made was to keep Mr. Clarke and his counter-terrorism group intact" because "we wanted an experienced team to try and identify the risk, take actions to disrupt the terrorists."

So there's a significant problem with the memory-hole strategy: It requires everyone to suspend their knowledge of one of the most elementary facts of this story. Perhaps recognizing this, the White House has trotted out a few supplementary lines of attack.

One is to portray Clarke as fetishizing meetings. A pillar of Clarke's evidence for the administration's lack of attention to terrorism before 9/11 is that there was never a meeting of Bush's senior national security advisers to discuss the issue. There were principals meetings about Iraq, the ABM treaty, and Kyoto, but not Al Qaeda. During the late summer of 2001, when intelligence chatter about an attack peaked, Clarke urgently pressed for a cabinet-level meeting, but Rice rejected his request. Now the White House is claiming that Clarke was just obsessed with meetings, and preferred process to action. "To somehow suggest that the attack on 9/11 could have been prevented by a series of meetings--I have to tell you that during the period of time we were at battle stations," Rice said yesterday. McClellan added, "He's been out there talking about whether or not he was participating in certain meetings. So it appears to be more about the process than the actual actions we have taken." Obviously, the topics the administration chooses to hold high-level meetings on suggest a great deal about its priorities, but Clarke's main point goes beyond that. In his book he argues that cabinet-level meetings during the dangerous period of late summer 2001 actually could have been instrumental in shaking information out of the bureaucracies. During the Clinton administration, Clarke insists such meetings drilled into cabinet secretaries the urgency of the threat and pushed officials to uncover clues that thwarted attacks.

The other problem with the White House's dismissal of Clarke's alleged meeting fetish is that it contradicts one of the Bushies' other attacks on him. Maybe those cabinet-level meetings on Al Qaeda weren't important, but McClellan suggests that Rice's staff meetings were essential. "Dr. Rice, early on in the administration," McClellan said yesterday, "started holding daily briefings with the senior directors of the National Security Council, of which he was one. But he refused to attend those meetings, and he was later asked to attend those meetings and he continued to refuse to attend those meetings." Apparently, some meetings are more important than others.

When White House officials yesterday weren't ignoring the fact that Clarke worked for Bush or complaining about his attendance record at staff meetings, their final major argument was that his approach to terrorism was more timid than the new administration's. "We didn't feel it was sufficient to simply roll back Al Qaeda; we pursued a policy to eliminate Al Qaeda," McClellan told reporters. This is an odd statement since Clarke for several years had been calling unambiguously for the complete destruction of bin Laden's organization. In fact, it was Clarke himself who was tasked with writing the new administration plan to deal with Al Qaeda. He pulled out his plan from the Clinton years, and presented it at a deputies meeting. It was the Bushies who flinched at the plan's aggressiveness. Several deputies thought the goal to "eliminate al Qaeda" went too far. They wanted the document to say "significantly erode al Qaeda." Clarke won but it hardly mattered. September 11 happened before Bush ever signed the plan.

Why are the administration's attacks such a bundle of confusion? Probably because this White House has never been confronted with such a credible and nonpartisan critic on the issue of terrorism. Polls over the last six months show an erosion of the public's confidence in one of the pillars of Bush's strength: his credibility. But that has not translated into a weakening of Bush's second greatest asset--voters' belief that he would confront terrorism better than John Kerry--and the administration wants to keep it that way. Of course, not everything Richard Clarke writes is necessarily the Gospel truth, and the press may quickly lose interest in his criticisms. But for the first time since 9/11, Bush's greatest accomplishments have been credibly recast as his greatest failures. No wonder the White House response seems so desperate.

Ryan Lizza is an associate editor at TNR.
 
"Asked by commissioner and former Illinois Gov. James R. Thompson (search) which of his statements is true - assertions from the book attacking the White House or the background briefing he gave to a small group of reporters - Clarke said neither."

Things that aren't true, are lies, aren't they? So if he admits he has lied twice, should anything he says be treated seriously? Is lying just one more form of debate, to be used as needed?

Why didn't TNR have big headlines saying Clarke admits he lied in book? Or did Fox just make up that quote?
 
Clarke said he was not asked about the invasion of Iraq during previous testimonies. This is the "9-11" commission, ****.

There seems to be a whole lot of spin from both sides. As I have posted many times before, the intelligence community in the U.S. has been a joke, **** Clarke is supposed to be telling us something that anyone with the smallest amount of ability to connect dots couldn't figure out? I don't see it.

My problem with **** is that he seems to have all the answers in hindsight, BFD.

I see him as a guy who was ignored in both administrations and he wants all to bow to him for supposedly crying wolf when there was a wolf. I wouldn't waste a dime on his book as he is an opportunist of the worst ilk.
 
Labman, Clark said he was asked by the administration to highlight the positive for that briefing. He was still employed there and said that doing that was not his choice but represented the politics that were being played by the administration. He felt he still had something good to offer and wanted to stay. If you have a link to the briefing I'll read it.
Groucho, The comments after the presentation by the victims families also showed dismay at the politicking, they had more questions they wanted asked related to 911. Attacking Clark does not get the issues debated. As for politicking, Connie Rice refuses to appear in public and under oath before the commission but continues to show up on interviews putting out the admins. spin.
Everyone realizes that this is hindsite but I don't think that makes it useless. Clark seems to have had the answers before hindsite though. The families purpose is to make sure it doen't happen again. The recommendations may spur change.
 
Needtoknow, in the world according to Clarke he had all the answers but in his service there were numerous terrorist attacks on the U.S.

Nobody listened to him then, why should anyone listen now? I would have had more respect for him if sometime closer to 9-11 Clarke had made these revelations, not when he's selling a book.
 
I think Mr. Clarke is for real and telling the truth.

His book ,if not held up in the White house screening process would have been released months ago.

While in the employ of the Government he could not have published it. I think too that he like a good government employee waited to reveal his "issues" because he was preparing for retirement . And that Bush went to war in Iraq more quickly than most would have judged. Once again deflecting the focus on Al Queda and that ilk. The difficult targets.

This guy is the most credible of the Bush detractors by virtue of his service for 30 years to administrations of both our corrupt political parties. Even more compelling than Paul Oneil.

Ease off the labels guys and stick to the issues.

Conservatives and Liberals are just not nuanced enough for the real world.

BTW , Clark is a registered Republican.

Bush had better put his thinking and speaking cap on or he is going to get run out of office for attempting to run the government as a distant/detached CEO instead of the President.

[ March 25, 2004, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
I think Mr. Clarke is for real and telling the truth.


Come on, he admitted in his testimony to the 911 commission that part of his book wasn't true. He lied, lied, lied. That book is worthless.
 
Groucho, According to Clark Clinton was on high alert, or whatever the proper term is, which meant that there were daily briefings from CIA, FBI, NS on the terrorist threat. In other words, these officials had to go out and shake the bushes every day of their prosepective departments and come back with reports. Kept everybody on their toes. I'm not saying each department did or did not do the proper things because of this, but at the least it shows the level of concern and committment by the WhiteHouse. The Clinton Admin. also could have done more, but they were doing far more than the Bush Team and taking the threat far more seriously. Clark's assertion that the "chatter" level went up tremendously pre-911 and Bush did not take his warnings seriously leads me to believe that had the Bush Admin also been at high alert level then the whole system would have been paying closer attention and we might have even stopped one plane. Speculation? yes of course can't go into the "way back machine" to verify as it's in for repairs.
 
quote:

Originally posted by needtoknow:
The Clinton Admin. also could have done more, but they were doing far more than the Bush Team and taking the threat far more seriously.

That's odd, Clark himself says in 2002, the Bush administration decided to "increase CIA resources, for example, for covert action, five-fold, to go after al Qaida."

Clark again in 2002: "There was no plan on al Qaida that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration." How serious was Clinton then?

Clark yet again in 2002: after the new administration was in place, March or April 2001, the Bush administration "then changed the strategy from one of rollback with al Qaida over the course [of] five years, which it had been, to a new strategy that called for the rapid elimination of al Qaida."

The transcript of Clark talking to reporter Jim Angle and others, is available on Foxnews.com.

This blame game - is Clinton or Bush to blame - is WORTHLESS. You sure aren't getting any answers from Clark. He may have a lot of valuable information, but his one sided Bush bashing is transparent and devalues what he says.

Supposedly Clark is a registered Republican. Strange for someone that has only financially supported democrat candidates.

Richard Clarke's campaign contributions have gone to Democrats

I initially gave Clark the benefit of the doubt. He used that all up and more.

Keith.
 
When the witch hunt is over, likely the report will recommend drowning both Clinton and Bush. There is no doubt we should have cleaned the al Qaeda out of Afghanistan before 911. However, I strongly doubt if we could have done much. Look at Afghanistan. They couldn't have picked a better place. A tough mountainous country surrounded by other Muslin countries. Even after 911, Musharraf risked his life helping us, and had trouble maintaining power. Last week, he had trouble with the tribal leaders in the area of the siege. Any Muslin leader that helped us attack Afghanistan would have been replaced, dead or alive. Lobbing a few cruise missiles in wouldn't have worked. We needed troops. It is unacceptable and dangerous to overfly a country without their permission. We wouldn't have wanted reinforcements marching in from all sides.

Likely some of you lack the intellectual honesty to admit even to yourself that you would have screamed if Bush would have done it. I doubt even the countries that are supporting us in Iraq could have before 911. Democracy or dictatorship, you can only push the people so far. The same people that are screaming over Iraq would have opposed any real action in Afghanistan.

Since Clinton's procedures were not preventing attacks, destroying the al Qaeda, or producing good intelligence, why should have Bush have continued to follow such ineffective ones? We could have, and should have tightened up our airports and immigration law. Still, people would not have supported that, especially any additional hassle for travelers and expenditures. Stopped at least one of the airliners? Shoot down one of our own civilian airliners with passengers aboard?

Or is anything OK to say or do, if it might gain Kerry one more vote?
 
quote:

Originally posted by labman:
Likely some of you lack the intellectual honesty to admit even to yourself that you would have screamed if Bush would have done it. I doubt even the countries that are supporting us in Iraq could have before 911. Democracy or dictatorship, you can only push the people so far. The same people that are screaming over Iraq would have opposed any real action in Afghanistan.

labman,
you raise a good point there.

I very much doubt that I would have supported U.S. action in Afghanistan before 9-11. Post 9-11, I support that action.
 
"Kept everybody on their toes. "

------------------------------------------------------

Oh come on now. The pilots were training during 2000. I am not blaming any administration. I am blaming the institutions and departments. Receiving reports and doing nothing is not proactive nor reactive, it's doing nothing!

They crashed the planes into the Pentagon! The center of the nation's defense! Everyone, and I mean everyone, was asleep at the wheel.

Mr. Clarke, that means you as well.
 
Labman, I think as well that pre-911 it would have been difficult to get support for an invasion of Afghanistan but that is the duty of a President, to lay a credible foundation and case for support of his actions based on facts. I have also never seen one post here that does not support Bush's decision to invade Afghanistan. I also don't remember seeing any world condemnation for it either. The original and continued intent and objective of the 911 Commission and the Steering Committee that pushed for it's creation is to make sure we don't make the same mistakes again, it's not to get either party elected.
 
"...I'm not going to bother to waste my time to dig up nuggets that demonstrate the same about liberals as what you posted in regards to conservatives."

I guess that's the difference between us, Forkman. I always feel obligated to provide facts, sources, quotes, and links to back-up what I say. Some others, either because they know there's nothing out there which backs-up their opinions, or simply because they're lazy, post controversial opinions and then expect folks to blindly accept 'em. Oh, and I noticed that I had posted to only ONE of four recently-locked threads, but hey, don't bother letting the facts get in your way... Why start now?
 
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