It's all about the...bottom line. Period.
Retail vs Boutique Synthetic Pricing
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
- Status
Because of this site POL (petro, oil, lubes) has become kind of hobby. I probably fall into the 'value camp'. From what I've figured out so far synthetics definately offer some performance improvements, like cold starting, high load, high temp applications, but it gets fuzzy on engine life. A lot of people seem content when using long change intervals with synthetics, I guess in an attempt to justify the additional expense or just because it's fun to do, but using a decent oil, changing it when needed, and most of all keeping it clean seem to do best for increased engine life. Using a bypass filter with dino and maybe using the normal change interval instead of the shorter severe interval seems like a better ticket for longer engine life than using synthetic with long change intervals, unless temp/load dictate synthetic use. With aviation oil and a few comments from former 100% synthetic users there is also a hint that a synthetic blend works best, although they don't use detergents in aviation oil. Currently I'm also an 'HDEO bigot' and sprinkle Mobil 1 T&S in all of my vehicles as a blend. I'll probably try a bypass on the truck, after I take care of a few other items.
No question about using using synthetics in the axles and manual transmission, and it also seems to make sense to use a synthetic ATF in the tranfer cases and auto transmissions. I also threw out my dino grease after trying Mobil 1 grease. I'm even using Mobil 1 gear oil as a general purpose household oil, it works very well, but might switch to a synthetic GL4 lube as it'll be kinder to the yellow metals.
No question about using using synthetics in the axles and manual transmission, and it also seems to make sense to use a synthetic ATF in the tranfer cases and auto transmissions. I also threw out my dino grease after trying Mobil 1 grease. I'm even using Mobil 1 gear oil as a general purpose household oil, it works very well, but might switch to a synthetic GL4 lube as it'll be kinder to the yellow metals.
Oh course you should do what you have to do to protect your car. I have spent over 40k on my car with the mods. However, there is a difference between being wise and foolish. If you see GC, Redline, Amsoil or any other top end oil there is nothing wrong with stockpiling.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that the cost of oil has skyrocked. Some have stockpiled oil to as a means of saving a few bucks. That does not mean that we are going to dump crap in our engines.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that the cost of oil has skyrocked. Some have stockpiled oil to as a means of saving a few bucks. That does not mean that we are going to dump crap in our engines.
1) 1sttruck, I agree completely with your whole top paragraph.
2) The reason most people who fall under "severe" service conditions do so is because of city driving/traffic. That condition necessitates oil changes primarily due to water/acid buildup, TBN depletion, and resultant sludge. Oxidation is far worse at high speed on the freeway. HDEOs address that issue every bit as well as any synthetic; it's an additive issue not a base stock issue. The same is true (additive vs. base stock) for extending drain intervals. The issues involved are primarily related to additive depletion. Base stock issues primarily only surface in very high shear and/or very high heat environments. That means that people living on mountaintops in the Rockies may benefit from a synthetic because it MAY not volatilize and therefore deposit so quickly/easily as a conventional.
3) I'm having trouble with this one:
In other words, it has NOT been proven that premium (meaning synthetic or blend) oils do just that to my knowledge. If you or anyone else has such proof as I mentioned above I'd REALLY like to see and read it.
2) The reason most people who fall under "severe" service conditions do so is because of city driving/traffic. That condition necessitates oil changes primarily due to water/acid buildup, TBN depletion, and resultant sludge. Oxidation is far worse at high speed on the freeway. HDEOs address that issue every bit as well as any synthetic; it's an additive issue not a base stock issue. The same is true (additive vs. base stock) for extending drain intervals. The issues involved are primarily related to additive depletion. Base stock issues primarily only surface in very high shear and/or very high heat environments. That means that people living on mountaintops in the Rockies may benefit from a synthetic because it MAY not volatilize and therefore deposit so quickly/easily as a conventional.
3) I'm having trouble with this one:
I think that the word "fact" should be replaced with the word "perception." Saying that premium (meaning synthetic or blend) oils give engines the least "chance" of having oil-related problems presumes that base stock type translates to better protection. No one anywhere at any time that I am aware of has ever been able to prove that base stock type has a statistically significant impact on automotive engine life.
In other words, it has NOT been proven that premium (meaning synthetic or blend) oils do just that to my knowledge. If you or anyone else has such proof as I mentioned above I'd REALLY like to see and read it.
Why not just drop the oil treatment and save another 2 bucks, at 5k miles you don't need it. Havoline is stout enough to do the job. Otherwise, Amen brother!
I don't think you can go too wrong with any of the major brands of dino out there. I am personally partial to Havoline, however, Pennzoil is starting to make a believer out of me also, the Super Tech filter is not too shabby, seems to work well for a 5k oci.
I suggest you read more. A simple comparison between paraffin base oils and asphalt base oils would be a start. Furthermore premium does not necessarily imply only syn or blend.
[ March 25, 2005, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: salesrep ]
To quote pricing makes no sense to me whatsoever in the spirit of this string..... Do we have an agenda mebbe? And for the record I am a Amsoil preferred customer and beat that price all to **** .....It never ceases to amaze me the "pimping" from the synthetics "sponsors"....Many "premium oil users" do so because they have been "shocked and brainwashed" into thinking they are doing a great disservice to their car by not using this wonderful synthetic product versus the dino's available today......the facts reflect quite the opposite friend....The pricing I used in my original quote was for point making purposes and not marketing reasons....OK I'll play your game....
I get 0-30 Amsoil for $4.00 a quart....5-30 Amsoil for under that.....Now in my daily driver.....I am changing oil every 3-5K...you are saying I have an advantage by using $3-$4 a quart oil over $1.50? I s this your point? I'd rather get naked than be stripped.....
Followed by
I wonder who has been brainwashed? 3K OCI? Doubt that you need to do that.
Other factors to consider with synthetic oil as I've experienced with Amsoil is engine cleansiness, better MPG and a cooler running engine which I feel in the long run would be a benefit in longevity.
Considering engine cleansiness, in the long run that factor would enable a longer running engine as conventional oil will eventually leave deposits which in turn negate the full potential in engine performance.
Considering engine cleansiness, in the long run that factor would enable a longer running engine as conventional oil will eventually leave deposits which in turn negate the full potential in engine performance.
You guys flame each other back and forth trying to prove your point. In the end, we all use the lubes we want. It makes sense to us and matters to no one else.
There's many reasons for using dino, blends and synthetics. There are thousands of applications and many more places to buy these oils at all prices. Some pay top dollar while others only shop for deals, like closeout $1 M1 and GC.
I use GC at 7500 mile OCIs. And I don't give a fat-rat's-a$$ if Chevron Supreme for .69/Qt may provide equal results.
It's a fact that conventional oils are closer to the performance of synthetics than they were years ago. But, in most applications synthetics will give you a cleaner engine, longer OCIs and better extreme cold flow.
There's many reasons for using dino, blends and synthetics. There are thousands of applications and many more places to buy these oils at all prices. Some pay top dollar while others only shop for deals, like closeout $1 M1 and GC.
I use GC at 7500 mile OCIs. And I don't give a fat-rat's-a$$ if Chevron Supreme for .69/Qt may provide equal results.
It's a fact that conventional oils are closer to the performance of synthetics than they were years ago. But, in most applications synthetics will give you a cleaner engine, longer OCIs and better extreme cold flow.
As I stated "in my daily driver I change oil every 3-5K. This is based on OCI of the conventional oils and UOA. And your point is what? How can that be brainwashed? Show me Team DFL..... I'm curious.......
Brainwashed into believing that you need an OCI at 3000 miles! What is the TBN of the oil you pour out? If it is low enough to warrant a change at 3000 miles then you are stressing the engine beyond what most consider the normal level for a daily driver. At that point there are benefits to a synthetic, so your arguement falls apart.
Point is not to beat anyone up, but claiming you are brainwashed because you use synthetics is a little over-dramatic. Just like saying you are brainwashed when you change your oil at 3000 miles. (Yes, I was trying to make a point). Fact is, synthetics offer benefits that most people never need and ultra-frequent oil changes are overkill in as many circumstances. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Now, synthetics every 3000 miles...
Point is not to beat anyone up, but claiming you are brainwashed because you use synthetics is a little over-dramatic. Just like saying you are brainwashed when you change your oil at 3000 miles. (Yes, I was trying to make a point). Fact is, synthetics offer benefits that most people never need and ultra-frequent oil changes are overkill in as many circumstances. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Now, synthetics every 3000 miles...
I love cars and motorcycles too, and I was never reluctant to spend big money on oil; but oil analysis has proven to me that synthetics in general, and boutique synthetics in particular, aren't worth the extra money. As a life-long synthetic user, I have to admit the dino guys are getting the best value.
How about when it's -30C? Long drain intervals? Short trips? Conventional and synthetic oils are often used in entirely different applications, as you know.
I wouldn't even think of putting dino in my vehicle up here.
I dont think that would be considered average...do you?
I see where you are coming from and generally agree. you can get well over 100,000 miles from vehicles now days on cheap oil/fram oil filters.quote:
Originally posted by buster:
Price is not a concern to me at all. I never understood the logic of skimping out on oil, when you just spent $25k on a new car.The point I was making is that all prices have gone up quite a bit and that we are seeing more high end synthetics at the retail store level.
I run synthetic in our truck/car/motorcycle now. I am convinced the synthetic oil does offer superior protection. But in all honesty, i DONT run vehicle much past 100,000 miles so it probably isnt an issue.
Hopefully the owners of the vehicle AFTER me will appreciate it!
darrell
sin city
Sgtgeek,-30°F is not that unusual! I see -20°F every year! I drive my car like I am training for the WRC! I have freq. extended idle times dureing the winter to keep my wife and kids warm! I often find that I will drive someplace that I would walk to in the summer because I have to wear a lot of clothes to walk any place at 25°F to -20°F and you still are uncomfortable! I am not hard core any more!!!
I think that it is acceptable but silly to change oil any more often then every 6 months in a daily driver unless your milage is just over the top insane! If the oil has to be changed every 3000 miles you are either putting junk oil in the car or your driveing style is not considered "normal service"! Four oil changes with conventional and filter are not that cheap any more if you use a good name brand. You can not use the rebated price of the oil in your math unless that is the price you paid at the "Point of Sale" I do not know of any rebates that ring up at the register they are all mail in! I also have not seen any recent oil sales were a national brand of conventional oil was sold on sale for $0.58 out the door!
Most conventional oils are hovering around $1.28 to a $1.68 with some slightly higer or lower. Most oils that go on sale go for about a $1 a quart. Even Walmarts low grade oil is $.97+tax per-quart!
I do not think any one has ever said that you can not keep most engines in clean running order with 3000 mile OCI with conventional oil! Their are plenty of examples of this on the road as wee speak. If I was going to lease a vechile of get rid of my vechiles freg. then conventional definately makes sense!!
Fuel Tanker Man,
It is a scientific fact that group IV adn V base stocks have vastly supior propertys to any conventional group I,II,III base stock used in an automotive oil! This is not my opinion! Now weather or not your engine and driveing conditions are demanding to enough to take advantage of these propertys or the additive package is another issue all together!
Some of use are just as concerned about what an oil is leaveing behind! Nit,Oxi,Insol,Soot,TBN retension, how it handles fuel loading and even coolant loading are all issues. Wear metal alone is not the sole criteria that is used to judge an oil!
I like the fact that I can reduce my oil waste from 16 quarts to 8 and still get long life! I like the fact that I do not need to crawl under my car any more then needed!I like the fact that my oil is less likely to burn off and leave deposits behind. I like the fact that my oil is not going to dry out my seal in the long run. I like the fact that if I choose to push my car way beyound what most consider normal like take my car to an SCCA event I can drive it their race it and drive it home on the same oil!
I think that it is acceptable but silly to change oil any more often then every 6 months in a daily driver unless your milage is just over the top insane! If the oil has to be changed every 3000 miles you are either putting junk oil in the car or your driveing style is not considered "normal service"! Four oil changes with conventional and filter are not that cheap any more if you use a good name brand. You can not use the rebated price of the oil in your math unless that is the price you paid at the "Point of Sale" I do not know of any rebates that ring up at the register they are all mail in! I also have not seen any recent oil sales were a national brand of conventional oil was sold on sale for $0.58 out the door!
Most conventional oils are hovering around $1.28 to a $1.68 with some slightly higer or lower. Most oils that go on sale go for about a $1 a quart. Even Walmarts low grade oil is $.97+tax per-quart!
I do not think any one has ever said that you can not keep most engines in clean running order with 3000 mile OCI with conventional oil! Their are plenty of examples of this on the road as wee speak. If I was going to lease a vechile of get rid of my vechiles freg. then conventional definately makes sense!!
Fuel Tanker Man,
I think that the above is just a bit misguided. I think I understand what you mean as I often over simplify things! I think that it would be more accurate to say that we have seen many instances were a non-synthetic performed just as well for that vechile under those circumstance as a synthetic had. In some cses the results were even better! The problem though is that not all vechiles can use a conventional oil under warranty! Not all vechiles do well with conventional oils at all! We have seen just as many if not more cases were a synthetic grossly outperformed a conventional oil!
It is a scientific fact that group IV adn V base stocks have vastly supior propertys to any conventional group I,II,III base stock used in an automotive oil! This is not my opinion! Now weather or not your engine and driveing conditions are demanding to enough to take advantage of these propertys or the additive package is another issue all together!
Some of use are just as concerned about what an oil is leaveing behind! Nit,Oxi,Insol,Soot,TBN retension, how it handles fuel loading and even coolant loading are all issues. Wear metal alone is not the sole criteria that is used to judge an oil!
I like the fact that I can reduce my oil waste from 16 quarts to 8 and still get long life! I like the fact that I do not need to crawl under my car any more then needed!I like the fact that my oil is less likely to burn off and leave deposits behind. I like the fact that my oil is not going to dry out my seal in the long run. I like the fact that if I choose to push my car way beyound what most consider normal like take my car to an SCCA event I can drive it their race it and drive it home on the same oil!
Yes I agree this is not a flame war but a discussionquote:
Originally posted by teamDFL:
Brainwashed into believing that you need an OCI at 3000 miles! What is the TBN of the oil you pour out? If it is low enough to warrant a change at 3000 miles then you are stressing the engine beyond what most consider the normal level for a daily driver. At that point there are benefits to a synthetic, so your arguement falls apart.
Point is not to beat anyone up, but claiming you are brainwashed because you use synthetics is a little over-dramatic. Just like saying you are brainwashed when you change your oil at 3000 miles. (Yes, I was trying to make a point). Fact is, synthetics offer benefits that most people never need and ultra-frequent oil changes are overkill in as many circumstances. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Now, synthetics every 3000 miles...
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked