Repubs to Abolish IRS

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quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
This is a "fairytale" proposal. No one is really going to let it happen. It's too fair. Both the left and the right have been manipulating the tax codes for all time.

Yup! It will be a miracle if this even gets to debate.

I have to believe that Hastert is sending this out as a trial balloon. It's the wrong season for it to get much attention - unless Bush starts to make it part of the election campaign. That seems to be a risk he doesn't need to take, given how well JFKerry is (not) doing.

Keith.
 
Another Republican idea that looks good on paper. They should concentrate more on spending less taxpayer money. Democrats get bashed for "taxing & spending", but this chimp in office now has spent more than even the most "liberal" of Democrats. Don't mention the huge deficit.

cheers.gif
 
Fellows, this proposal is a Trojan horse. I'll get to why in a minute.

First, as was done back in April when this topic first came up, I'll present some warnings about a national sales tax that Bruce Bartlett presented in the conservative magazine The American Enterprise in 1995. He was deputy assistant secretary for economic policy in the Treasury Department during Bush I's administration, so he cannot be called a flaming liberal. If you want to read the whole thing, it's part of a larger discussion at http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.16499/article_detail.asp . Here are his points:

1. A sales tax rate of 17-18% comes nowhere near replacing what the current income tax fetches. The rate would be 19% if every bit of economic production could be taxed, but it can't. Businesses buy things for resale and manufacturing, so the goods will eventually be taxed. Exports, business investments, government purchases, etc., must be exempted, so by his number crunching the rate would have to be 32%.

And that would be on everything: food, clothing, medicine, for starters, and on all services including medical and legal. Taxing services is difficult at best, and a stiff tax on doctor and hospital bills would never fly. If services remain exempt because of collection issues, the rate on goods would be 65%--still including food, etc.

Exempt food and all medical care and the rate is up to 82%. Of course, that's on top of existing state sales taxes of up to 9+%. Bartlett suspects that states will go to income taxes to avoid having to collect sales taxes for the feds, because of the potential expense and administrative nightmare in collecting sales taxes on that scale. That would include those few states that don't already have an income tax. Therefore . . .

2. Some government organization will have to remain to collect taxes, since the states cannot be relied upon to collect for the federal government. After all, evasion will still exist, as will the need for auditing. Sounds as if an Internal Revenue Service (IRS) will still be needed, eh?

3. According to numerous studies, sales taxes at levels above 10% encourage evasion. (That's why high-tax states such as California have deliberately avoided breaking the 10% barrier for sales taxes.) Even at, say, 20-25%, this will be an issue with a federal sales tax. If the idea is to tax the end user, then tax-exempt purchases for business use that could double as personal-use items would require auditing businesses, and especially the self-employed, for compliance.

4. Your income would still have to be tracked for Social Security and Medicare withholding. Also, nearly all states impose an income tax, and that wouldn't end just because the feds go to a consumption-based tax. Without being able to piggyback on the feds' work concerning income tracking and tax enforcement, states will have to become a lot more intrusive.

5. Rebating part of the consumption tax to benefit the poor would require registering and tracking every citizen. Everyone would have to get a check, since we aren't tracking income any more, right?

Bartlett presents other objections as well. But wait . . .

-*-*-*-

Now here are my comments:

6. With a stiff retail sales tax even remotely like what Bartlett fears, consumption would plummet. Can you say "depression"? Bet you can. As the old saying goes, you tax heavily what you seek to discourage. So it would go with consumption. Bartlett notes that people would go into debt to buy what they would need in a huge spending spree just before the tax became effective. If you were told that gasoline will go from $2.00/gallon to $6.00/gallon effective 10 August 2004, you and everyone else would fill up on 9 August 2004, wouldn't you? Then you wouldn't get any more gas for as long as you could avoid it, right? The same effect would appear with a national sales tax. And don't forget the potential for supply and commodity shortages and disruptions as a result.

7. Just how would black market money appear and be taxed? If a drug dealer or mobster can evade income taxes, s/he will evade a national sales tax. To claim that the underground economy would magically be taxed is ludicrous.

8. If businesses faced a stiff national sales tax on equipment, you can kiss most new business starts goodbye.

9. Now here's the Trojan horse. Look, the Republicans have been pushing this idea of abolishing income taxes and the IRS to a gullible public since the 1980s. During the 1984 presidential debates, Walter Mondale accused President Ronald Reagan of having a plan to impose a national sales tax or a European-style value-added tax (VAT, which is much the same thing as far as the consumer is concerned) to balance what were then record deficits. Reagan's denial wasn't exactly convincing, but nothing further developed then. This same idea popped up 10 years ago, which was the reason for Bartlett's piece in 1995. Now it has reared its ugly head again. Sounds like trial balloons.

There's an agenda at work here, and it isn't about economic freedom or eliminating taxes. (Reading between the lines, I suspect that Bartlett believed that the real issue was the possibility that the feds would impose a VAT.) If the Republicans who run the show today in Washington could be trusted with your freedoms, then we wouldn't have Attorney General John Ashcroft's well-documented assaults on the Constitution and on privacy.

Instead, the ultimate plan here is to monitor all of the transactions you and your dependents make--everything you buy or sell. It isn't hard to picture the feds requiring that anything you sell at a yard sale, or any sale of your personal belongings, be subject to this tax. Sell your car to another individual and pay a stiff tax for the privilege. Wonderful.

At first, you will have to be able to produce receipts for everything upon demand during an audit to prove you paid the new sales tax. But eventually, to monitor this activity (including the dreaded underground economy) so that it can be taxed will require going to a cashless society with electronic cards or Internet transactions replacing greenbacks. The feds want to do this anyway; assuring "fairness" with a national sales tax will be the convenient excuse. Then once you buy that controversial book, or that spicy magazine, or that new (gasp) gun, the feds will know and could send agents to ask you just why you wanted that item.

And you can bet that there would be a phase-in period when income taxes are still in place but the new sales tax is beginning. Once begun, that phase-in period will never end. The feds will monitor your income and your buying and selling. Is that what you want?

Be careful what you wish for. You might get it. And get it hard.

[ August 04, 2004, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: ekrampitzjr ]
 
quote:

A sales tax rate of 17-18%

Why would you use that figure when the cost of the federal goverment has been almost a constant 21% of the GNP. The only thing the politicians have done is "shift" this around to appear like they're doing you a favor.
quote:

And that would be on everything: food, clothing, medicine, for starters

So?
quote:

If services remain exempt because of collection issues,

More "vapor-agruement". Any dealership provides a service ...they charge a tax (6% in PA). So you get everyone else to ante up. Keep in mind those providing the service will NOW BE INCOME TAX FREE. Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants (probably less need for them..maybe), will all not be in a "bracket" anymore. In the "free market" this should translate to lower service fees so that more can afford them. If not, these highly paid, and no longer taxed pros will SPEND up to 28% MORE on taxable goods.

quote:

the rate would have to be 32% the rate on goods would be 65%- and the rate is up to 82%

Sounds like that guy on Animal House when the fraternity is being censured by the student government and the adminstration. He starts off with some semi legit assertions ...and by the time he's done turns the accusation into an assault on the American way of life (as they march out of the room in indignation).

This is "spin art"...nothing more. Anyone who believes and supports this conjecture ..is DEATHLY AFRAID that this would be implimented since they would pay THEIR FAIR SHARE.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
A sales tax rate of 17-18%

Why would you use that figure when the cost of the federal goverment has been almost a constant 21% of the GNP. The only thing the politicians have done is "shift" this around to appear like they're doing you a favor.
quote:

And that would be on everything: food, clothing, medicine, for starters
I believe the sales tax rate being proposed is actually 30%. Unfortunately, it's been reperesented as 23% in an amateurish bit of slight of hand that anyone who has finished 8th grade math should be able to see.

I am convinced that a gross simplification of our tax system would be a good thing if done right, but it needs to be done with our eyes open.

Taxes have a -lot- of influence on how people work, spend money and behave in many different ways. There are entire industries built up around the way our tax system works. The IRS, financial advisors, organized crime, lobbying organizations... they all have strong influence on how our government works.

A major change in our tax system will have a major change in how we live. There are dozens of other countries that have various forms of national sales ataxes or VATs. We all need to understand the differences between VATs and sales taxes. And we should learn what we can from the good and the bad of other countries experiances.

Most of us are some place near the middle of the economic pile. Our overall lot isn't going to change much unless the change is really screwed up, but it sure would be nice to have greatly simplified taxes that are more visible than they are now.

Along those lines, if we do end up with aVAT or national sales tax, I would like to see every price tag have the actual price and tax both listed on the tag instead of the VAT being hidden like it is in Yurp. People should know how much tax they are paying.

Ekrampitzjr's post seems a bit excessive, but it's one of the best ones here. At least it discusses some of the potential problems. There are a lot of potential problems that need to be dealt with. People need to think about this, very seriosuly.

I'm not convinced that a national sales tax is any better than a modified flat income tax, but either could be much better than what we have.


We need to proced with caution.

"Be careful what you wish for, you might get it."
Old chinese Proverb

"Management gets that behavior that it rewards, unfortunately, it often doen't realize what behavior it is actually rewarding."
That pretty well describes our present tax system.
 
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