Social Security scam - Greenspan telling it like it is

[Forkman]

ALS, you have no idea how happy I'd be if the scenario you laid out actually happened.

quote:

---

What do think happens when Joe six-pack is expecting to retire at 67 with a $1,200 per month SSI check and is told well sorry your working to 70 and your check is only going to be $800. Then he hears that millions are being spent on feel good programs in the intercities.
....
These people said the trigger will be that the race card will be played once too often.
The have's will tell the have not's NO MORE.

---

Oh please let this happen. Pretty please. Because its gotten to the point that it will take something as horrible as this happening to correct the slow decline of this country that's been taking place for the past 5 decades.

Could you possibly provide a link to anything relating to this ALS.

[ February 27, 2004, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Forkman ]

 

[ex_MGB]

It's a bit of a read but I don't think SS is a subject that can be explained in one paragraph.

Actually, it's simplicity itself. If you are not going to work, then someone else will need to work to produce the goods and services that you consume.

The present system is geared towards forcing greater and greater productivity gains, working second jobs and in lieu of the native population having children (too expensive to raise given the high living standard expectation), importing cheap immigrant labor.

Thus, gay marriage makes perfect economic sense.

Of course, the main purpose of all this is not to help retirees. Rather, one may look upon America as a rich grazing pasture. Once it is exhausted, they'll move on to greener pastures.

[ February 27, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]

 

[Bror Jace]

Keith is right as usual.

Social Security was originally conceived as merely a supplement to personal savings but anyone who knows anything about human beings should have seen that it would become much, much more. Some believe SS was a plan to get citizens dependent on the government. Perhaps, but I’d rather believe it was typical short-sighted liberalism and the law of unintended consequences. They simply didn’t understand

Of all the high-profile elected officials I’ve seen speak about this, a Democrat was the most honest, the most outspoken for reform: former Senator Bob Kerry. He had gotten involved in a number of heated arguments with ignorant seniors who accused him of stealing from them. I believe he’s used the “you are stealing money from your grandchildren” argument … which is, of course, true. Sometimes that gets the greedy geezers

At the very least, they need to re-think the COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment) increases recipients receive each year. Everyone is (privately) in agreement that this is calculated to be too high and recipients are essentially being given unearned raises all the time.

However nothing will be done about this in the current year. It’s a presidential election year and the president, one third of the Senate and the entire House of Representatives are up for re-election.

ALS, you had me until you brought “race war” into this. Can’t buy that and saying everyone inside the beltway is moving out into the country sounds like a crazy internet rumor.

JohnnyO: “Personally I'm already resolved to having to work until I die.”

Yep, me too. The concept of “retiring” and not working at all during the last 20% of your life is something that only a narrow slice of humanity (looking at the history of human civilization) is going to be able to experience. The generation before them sacrificed and toughed it out and the generation after them is going to pay for their unearned leisure lifestyle.

Anyway, if the SSI retirement age kept pace with life expectancy, it would be something like 80 right now.

What’s standing in the way of fixing the problem is that elderly people vote (often selfishly) and in greater percentages than any other age group. We aren’t teaching enough of our kids to be responsible citizens and they don’t vote nearly as much as they should. Making things worse, there is the generation too young to vote. What’s the point of serving that constituency? And liveral politicians pandering to them, telling them they’ve earned that SSI check isn’t helping any either.

It all adds up that we will continue to kick this can down the road until it gets to be a crisis and people, even liberals, will not tolerate any more taxes and only then will we be able to reign things in on the benefit side which is where the problem is. We are paying out too much money, too quickly.

--- Bror Jace

 

[keith]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
Of all the high-profile elected officials I've seen speak about this, a Democrat was the most honest, the most outspoken for reform: former Senator Bob Kerry.

---

That must have been before he started to run for the 2004 nomination? Now he is aligned with unindicted murderer, Ted Kennedy, who is sure that there is nothing wrong with Social Security and it doesn't need any fixing at all.

There is one nice thing to say about JF Kerry. No matter your views on an issue, at one time Kerry agreed with you.

Keith.

 

[JohnnyO]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
JohnnyO: “Personally I'm already resolved to having to work until I die.”

Yep, me too. The concept of “retiring” and not working at all during the last 20% of your life is something that only a narrow slice of humanity (looking at the history of human civilization) is going to be able to experience.....
Anyway, if the SSI retirement age kept pace with life expectancy, it would be something like 80 right now.

---

Right! Thing to remember, SS was created to collect at age 65 when the average life expectancy was 65 1/2.

When my mom's parents were in their late 60's, they were OLD. Now my folks are in their late 60's and they're bopping around all over though arthritis is slowing my dad down a bit. The system, for all its faults, was never meant to have people collect out of it for 30 years. As it is, anyone born after 1958 (me) won't get full SS benefits until age 70, and that was changed back in 1977. Folks on my dad's side tend to live about forever so I have every intention of making it to 100. I have a cousin by marriage, his dad is 90, looks 65, still works on engines, and rides a Harley Sportster he bought new 2 years ago.

 

[JohnnyO]

quote:

---

Originally posted by keith:
That must have been before he started to run for the 2004 nomination?

---

Bob Kerry was a different Senator. He's a Democrat too, but from Nebraska I think.

 

[Bror Jace]

"Bob Kerry was a different Senator. He's a Democrat too, but from Nebraska I think."

That's correct. He's a former US Senator from Kansas and I think he was one of the first Navy SEALs.

He's currently president of "The New School" in NYC. He's also a member of the group looking into intel lapses leading to September 11. He was on "Hardball" last night. Not a memorable appearance, IMHO.

And the spelling (if you're tring to do a search) is "Bob Kerrey"

--- Bror Jace

 

[Bror Jace]

ALS, I agree with many of the individual points you made and I don’t even dispute any of your statistics. It’s just that a race war has been continually predicted since de-segregation started in the 50s and it hasn’t happened yet, not even close.

Now, you seem to be making a good case for a class and or generation war … but I don’t even see that. People, struggling as some may be, are too apathetic to even vote in great numbers let alone take up arms.

When the people who go to work every day are sick of getting hosed by confiscatory taxes and start going to the polling places in greater numbers than the greedy geezers complaining they can’t go on a second or third vacation in a year, then we’ll see some real change. People need to save more and the elderly need to have a more realistic view of “retirement.” It needs to happen later and they will have to be put on a tighter budget. Some of the latest $100-per-month wiz-bang drugs to treat yellow toenail fungus may also not be free for them.

Despite what you read in the papers and see on the news, the elderly in this country are doing pretty well as a demographic group. Most are NOT forced to choose between meds, food and heating their home in the winter. And if some are, it’s their own fault for not saving enough. Plus, many are far richer than they seem. Members of the WWII generation are chronic savers and live very modestly and their true wealth isn’t known until they pass away and leave millions to a local school or community group.

Trouble is, for the generation 40 and under, they’ve saved much less than the baby boomers and WWII generation and their retirement packages (private sector as well as SSI) will be much skimpier. AND, they will be living longer. The solution? they’ll have to work until they’re 80 or 85.

Want to see what the future has in store for the US? Look at Europe, specifically their demographics. Higher taxes, higher unemployment, lower standard of living and rationed health care. It will suck (by today’s standards) but I think the country will do OK. Yes, the black market will be a greater factor too, but I believe many of the things we enjoy in life today are complex, expensive and may be hard to procure from friends, relatives and people on the street.

I’m single with no kids and I’ll leave the money I’ve saved to my niece and nephew. But I’ll probably leave them a few of my firearms as well.

--- Bror Jace

 

[JohnnyO]

Why would it be a "race war" and not a war against the govt.?

Or people just don't see that it's the govt. causing most of the problems by skewing markets and getting in the way? I had a letter to the editor of the local paper a few months ago where I said that I could live a lot easier in FL without A/C than I could in PA without heat.

 

[ALS]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bror Jace:


ALS, you had me until you brought “race war” into this. Can’t buy that and saying everyone inside the beltway is moving out into the country sounds like a crazy internet rumor.

--- Bror Jace

---

Bror It is the people that have the knowledge of the report that are the ones moving. The average worker in Washington is clue-less to what's going on around them. The guys I deal with are FBI, DEA, DIA, State Department, Pentagon personel, Customs, and the top SWAT, SRT, units from around the country to name a few. You see Bror I shoot with the absolute best Tactical Snipers in North America. These are invitation only competitions. The last shoot I spent the week on the firing line with a FBI Agent on my left and a well known National and World Champion shooter on my right.
This report was put out by the FBI and it wasn't INTERNET rumors it was told directly to me by people that have personally read it. These Career Government employees used the term "Race War" not I. The 4 SWAT Police officers and 2 other civilians that were with me at that mess hall table heard the same story. The 3 Goverment guys were talking like it is fact and you better be prepared, because it is coming. Not IF but WHEN. When the U.S. is looking at $5.00 a gallon gasoline and natural gas bills are running 3 to 5 times what they are today. The average worker is paying 50% in taxes the fuse will be set. It will not take much to light it off. Right now 45% of the workers in this country don't pay Federal taxes at all. In ten years it will be more like 55%. Bror if you haven't noticed the media and liberals are telling the average American that they are a victims of those nasty rich people and we are going to get them for you. So, that's a real intellegent thing to do. Last time I looked no one that is privatly employeed had their paycheck signed by a Poor person. It is going to real hard to get a job when the offical unemployment will be in the 15 to 20% range. There was a California financial report last summer that was reported on KFI 640 AM in LA that showed that 26% of the people in Southern California are not paying any income taxes. This under ground economy mentality will spread as the tax rates increase across the country. I don't know about you but I can name 5 people off the top of my head that are working part time under the table in one way or another.

[ February 27, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: ALS ]

 

[gudmund]

AND TOO THINK EVERY DOLLAR YOU HAVE SENT IN FOR SOCIAL SECURITY HAS BEEN TAXED BY THE IRS. HAS BEEN ONE GREAT INVESTMENT, HASN'T IT??

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Right! Thing to remember, SS was created to collect at age 65 when the average life expectancy was 65 1/2.

---

Oddly enough the human "life expectancy" truly has not changed. It's only that there have been a number of infectous ailments that have been eliminated via vacination that has allowed people to live as long as they normally would have. Look at your obituaries. There are people who have had no advantage of advanced medical care nor knowledge of 'healthy" lifestyle that live to 85-90. We also spend a great deal on giving them a couple years more on the planet with expensive medical treatment.

The main aging component is allegedly "free radicals" ..they damage our DNA and eventually make it impossible to replicate healthy cells. Those who die sooner allegedly have what could be called "birth defects" in that DNA structure to begin with. Cloned adult mice die prematurely since they are cloning "damaged goods"

It's in the genes.

Beyond all that ....there are too many of us getting too old. Bottom line. It simply demographics and a fund that was too healthy for too long and too many things were attached to it. Now the ying of the yang is coming home and it is going to be as painful as the early part was a pleasure.

 

[K-Man]

Here's why Social Security and Medicare are doomed, along with Medicaid. Medicaid is the last-chance health insurance for the poorest Americans. When most US citizens think of this program, they think of single parents with children. In rough figures, that group makes up two-thirds of Medicaid recipients, with the other third being elderly in nursing homes. When it comes to actual dollars spent, however, the proportions are reversed. Two-thirds of Medicaid dollars go to nursing homes and for elderly health care, while only one-third goes to single parents and children. Again in rough figures, the feds pay 55% of these bills and states pick up the other 45%. Medicaid is an entitlement, so it must be funded. This is a mandate on the states.

Now a little background. My grandparents are in a nursing home. After his family farm went bust during World War II, my grandfather worked in low-paid farm jobs all his life, though I strongly believe he could have done much better (and should have, as my grandmother was allergic to farm animal dander but he wouldn't get into another line of work). He would get tired of one job and spend what family assets existed on cross-country moves. He saved nothing and they didn't even have a house until my grandmother inherited some money.

So I did some number crunching some time back. He retired over 25 years ago. After adding what he has received in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, he has recouped not only everything he paid into these programs plus all income taxes--he has received from the US taxpayer more than his entire lifetime earnings! It doesn't take many years of $50K annual Medicaid payments to a nursing home to wipe out years of earning perhaps $2K-3K a year back in the '40s-'60s. This even includes any plausible interest any savings he had could have earned. (Keep in mind that the low interest rates we have today are simply what were the normal historical levels until the '60s.) In short, though I hate to phrase it this way, he has become a net leech on society. And you dislike welfare moms?

He's far from the only one who has gotten more from the system than his lifetime earnings. This doesn't even address evidence of widespread gaming of Medicaid by seniors' hiding assets, especially before reforms passed in 1993. And that's why these programs are doomed and need drastic reform. They aren't sustainable or fair. We constantly give checks to the elderly, who are the richest group by age in the US, but we ended welfare to children, the poorest group by age. Only about 12% of those over 65 are in poverty in the US. The figure is double that for children under 6.

We decided that poor children weren't worthy of our aid, primarily because we didn't like their parents and those parents' behavior (and skin color). Also, lobbyists resisted reforms to correct abuses for far too long. The result was that when welfare was "reformed" in 1996, it was done with a sledgehammer. Welfare for single parents as we knew it ended then. Lobbyists likewise have resisted reforming elderly entitlements and have even succeeded in adding a drug benefit to Medicare. Now Greenspan is swinging that sledgehammer toward these types of welfare. Look out.

As for me, I'm 40--but I figure on working until I'm at least 70. That's because I have some idea of what's going to happen. And that sledgehammer is going to hit sooner than you think.

 

[JohnnyO]

ekramp, I agree with everything you said. As far as SS and welfare reform, I think the best way is to simply say that everyone born AFTER a certain year, you have a new program. Private SS, no or very little welfare, whatever. Everybody born before that stays on the old system and after a while they'll die off and those expenses will be gone. If people realize that they're ain't going to be no welfare for them, they will prepare for a life where a career is included and not sitting home, making future generations of welfare recipients because there's nothing else to do, and getting govt checks in the mail.

 

[buster]

If anyone thinks it's as simple as privatizing SS your NUTS, period. Read the article today on CBS Market watch. It's not that easy. Also, taxes will have to be raised and the retirement age. And how does one account for market swings? You could get boned thinking your going to retire wealthy. And with these deficits that Bush has us into, it's a very bad idea IMO. They are going to have to raise the taxable available income to SS above the current $90k level. Someone's got to pay for it.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

buster, kiss your FICA contributions goodbye.

 

[opus1]

At the ripe old age of 42, I don't see ever getting anything from SS, either because the system will be completely broke by then or because the government will look at people like me/us who maxed out our 401(k) and say "well you don't really NEED the money since you have other income so you're not getting any money" -- all the while taxing my 401(k) distrubutions to boot. Heck, it's started now, my Dad has to pay taxes on part of his SS payments because he has some 401(k) money and a pension so the government considers him to be well-off and takes back part of the SS money they give him. Figure that one out.

Don't get me wrong, they're not eating dog-food, but they're not rich by any means.

The only benefit I see is that my parents are collecting right now and I don't have to support them -- which at $8/hour would be pretty tough since it doesn't even cover all of MY bills.

 

[Matt89]

I'm thinking that if people knew there wasn't such a nice safety net waiting for them, we wouldn't NEED to have immigrants come over to pick our food for us.

My old man has a saying "It doesn't matter if I was living in a cardboard box...mine would be the best".

Edit: Just had a little revelation here. I often feel bad that I 'give so little' to charity. Then I looked at the 'tax' part of my pay stub.

Giving plenty to charity...the Gov't is managing it for me.

[ December 22, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Matt89 ]

 

[Gary Allan]

No matter how you slice it up ...there's going to be no "golden years" for many of us. There just ain't enough pie to be cut that way.

They'll just keep upping the standard to collect benefits until most of us are dead.

It's only funny money anyway.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Last I checked wich was so time ago it took three to five people paying in to SS to support one person receiveing SS. It does not take fancy math to figure out how this is going to end up. On top of that SS has been funding NASA since NASA was formed. You can not live on what they pay any way so it is is a failure no matter how you look at it.

SS is just another tax and that is how I consider it. I consider it taxation with undjust representation!

Here goes another one!! The death rate keep droping, health care cost per-capita keeps riseing and the birth rate keeps droping. The bigest hit to birth rates is aabortion. The second bigest hit is females postponeing pregnancy for careers. Nothing like loseing your best birthing years to corperate politics and empty promises! Then when they think they are ready they find out their bodys do not want to cooperate and they have to try all maner of un-natural way to get prenant.

P.S. This does not include all the people that are wards of the state, disabled, spoues drawing benifits and people drawing it for educational purepose. Lets not forgett those people milking the system illegaly like people that do not report a person deths to keep cashing the check etc.......