It's a pearls-before-swine situation. Mobil is pumping expensive PAO into a premium oil for NASCAR boneheads who have no idea how it's formulated and why they actually even buy it. Never mind the fact they only run it for 3000 miles.
Reply from Mobil 1 concerning basestocks
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If this is truly a "bait & switch" then you (we) have the makings of a class-action lawsuit.
Is the evidence strong enough?
If so, let's see the experts put up here and get the ball rolling.
I'll join - assuming that the data truly supports your claims.
Is the evidence strong enough?
If so, let's see the experts put up here and get the ball rolling.
I'll join - assuming that the data truly supports your claims.
No they are not violating the definitions of "synthetic" . They are morally in the lowlife catagory but not legally. I'm not a lawyer.
Then people should quit posting that.
Everything we buy and do has been muddled by lawyers (sorry to you JDs here) and you could spend all your life picking apart lies.
I still find it hard to believe that M1 has been pulling the wool over everyone's eyes until this email.
Did everyone here just assume what M1 was composed of?
Were the posts pre-email about what M1 was/is all bull?
I'd like to know as I see a lot of folks jumping on the "M1 sux" bandwagon and I'd like to know why so many knowledgeable folks got ________'d for so long?
Everything we buy and do has been muddled by lawyers (sorry to you JDs here) and you could spend all your life picking apart lies.
I still find it hard to believe that M1 has been pulling the wool over everyone's eyes until this email.
Did everyone here just assume what M1 was composed of?
Were the posts pre-email about what M1 was/is all bull?
I'd like to know as I see a lot of folks jumping on the "M1 sux" bandwagon and I'd like to know why so many knowledgeable folks got ________'d for so long?
Mobil ignored my second e-mail so as far as I'm concerned they are hiding something. I confronted them about using group three in their formulations and they refused to answer. They only stated that their oils are 100% synthetic and utilize a PAO basestock but refuse to discuss their actual formulation.
Mobil Oil pioneered the use of PAO. They aren't just another petrochem company who proclaimed this technology this week and that the next. They fought long and hard for the acceptance of PAO as synth and then to convince everyone of its superiority. Yes, many people by and large trusted that a company that touted a specific technology for so long. When the group III controversy came up, Mobil1 used its PAO credibility with the consumer to assure them that Mobil1 was superior to any other mass market oil out there. Well, seems that was a mistake. Sure, there are probably 8,000 wiggle words ExxonMobil has in its marketing to assure they never get their hand caught in the cookie jar. Lawsuit worthiness is no barometer of this issue. I didn't sue my parents when I found out there was no Santa Claus. I still remember feeling pretty bad about it...
Right now, I feel pretty bad about Mobil1. If you don't that's your concern, not mine.
Brian continues to make a great deal of sense at least to me. I personally don't understand why some view this as nothing. Perhaps it's because some people are practical and some are principled. Me, I disliked being hoodwinked at anytime over anything.
Since Tom's thread was locked (why?) I'll agree it's no surprise he won't offer further analysis. I saw that coming 1/2 way through the thread. I also complelety understand why he made the choice.
Since Tom's thread was locked (why?) I'll agree it's no surprise he won't offer further analysis. I saw that coming 1/2 way through the thread. I also complelety understand why he made the choice.
Regardless of whether GrIII IS in Mobil 1 (and from the recent tests, I'd be suprised if it didn't).
Mobil put themselves on a pedestal and claimed Gr IV/V as the only true synthetics.
Announcing that GrIII can also be considered synthetic gives them lots of wriggle room for the future, even if they aren't doing it at present (and I'm pretty sure that they are).
It wasn't me, or the rest of the board that nominated the size of the pedestal and then clambered up on it.
(BTW, I'm sure that this and other threads are know by Exxon Mobil...it would take a single post by someone in a genuine position to know to have us all eating humble pie).
Mobil put themselves on a pedestal and claimed Gr IV/V as the only true synthetics.
Announcing that GrIII can also be considered synthetic gives them lots of wriggle room for the future, even if they aren't doing it at present (and I'm pretty sure that they are).
It wasn't me, or the rest of the board that nominated the size of the pedestal and then clambered up on it.
(BTW, I'm sure that this and other threads are know by Exxon Mobil...it would take a single post by someone in a genuine position to know to have us all eating humble pie).
I don't see where anyone has been hoodwinked. You can go back for at least ten years and you won't find any Mobil 1 marketing materials that state "Mobil 1 is made from nothing but PAO" or "Mobil 1 doesn't use any Group III." For those of us who have assumed Mobil 1 was nothing but PAO, it's all been based on deduction given Mobil's complaint to the NAD against Castrol over the use of Group III. Granted, I have called Mobil's 1-800 number in the past and been told unequivocally that Mobil 1 contained no Group III. But I always take answers from those guys with a grain of salt. But the fact remains: None of us have ever had any definitive proof that Mobil 1 is all PAO and Group V. What Tom has posted comes the closest yet to being compelling evidence that it isn't.
The thread was locked because the posts were taking a decidedly personal turn against Tom himself.
I really hope that Auto-Union gets banned for his last post in the locked thread. He really put himself in his true place (a low one) with that comment. How about it, G-Man? Is he on the chopping block?
Tom Schaefer's work was a gift to us. A gift, with all that a gift implies. We should all be profoundly appreciative that he shared anything with us. And we should respect his decision to stop. Perhaps if we are lucky, he or others will share information with us again in the future. I just hope some of the resident cheerleader/knuckleheads with their pompous agendas didn't shy him away.
But to address the issue here, the vast majority of motor oil consumers don't know that Group III or IV base oils even exist, let alone their differences. That it is "synthetic" is sufficient . . . much as a chain franchise's burgers contain "beef". They are not being hoodwinked, as they have no expectation of getting PAO and don't even know what it is.
It is this lightly informed typical consumer that accounts for 99.999999% of Mobil 1 sales and profits. The sophisticated consumer who frequents places like this are the demographically irrelevant fringe and don't matter at all to the decision makers.
Anything labeled "synthetic" now commands a price premium, no matter what's in it. Mobil, more than anyone else, built that market perception. It was Mobil's effort that paved the way for companies like Castrol to later profit from the characterization with different ingredients.
And in a twisted turn of fate, ExxonMobil now owes Castrol a debt of thanks for paving the way for them to use Group III. The consumer is none the wiser, still gets a "synthetic", and the blender still gets the premium price.
The difference between profit and greed is the same as that between Group IV and "synthetic". If Group I could be sold as a "synthetic", I'm sure someone would sell it as such.
But to address the issue here, the vast majority of motor oil consumers don't know that Group III or IV base oils even exist, let alone their differences. That it is "synthetic" is sufficient . . . much as a chain franchise's burgers contain "beef". They are not being hoodwinked, as they have no expectation of getting PAO and don't even know what it is.
It is this lightly informed typical consumer that accounts for 99.999999% of Mobil 1 sales and profits. The sophisticated consumer who frequents places like this are the demographically irrelevant fringe and don't matter at all to the decision makers.
Anything labeled "synthetic" now commands a price premium, no matter what's in it. Mobil, more than anyone else, built that market perception. It was Mobil's effort that paved the way for companies like Castrol to later profit from the characterization with different ingredients.
And in a twisted turn of fate, ExxonMobil now owes Castrol a debt of thanks for paving the way for them to use Group III. The consumer is none the wiser, still gets a "synthetic", and the blender still gets the premium price.
The difference between profit and greed is the same as that between Group IV and "synthetic". If Group I could be sold as a "synthetic", I'm sure someone would sell it as such.
Fair nuff but I guess I'm a bit naive then. I expect a firm to have reasonably informed representatives, at least about a product's key feature and one the product's reputation was built upon. And I find it hard to believe if it wasn't mostly PAO the secret hasn't been outed until now. Tom is not the only one to have a G.C., the industry watches each other where such competitive products are involved, and the internet is a big place. Again though, that may be naive on my part but my point was if this is true I feel it's a matter of principle and not performance.
Ok, I understand about the thread. I dunno about banning anyone but his comment was, considering Tom's contribution and his right to chose as he sees fit in any case, definitely in bad taste. It's probably time to let it all die anyway. Tom has supplied the information and now it's up to each of us to do with it as we see fit. It sure did muddy the water though.
Ok, I understand about the thread. I dunno about banning anyone but his comment was, considering Tom's contribution and his right to chose as he sees fit in any case, definitely in bad taste. It's probably time to let it all die anyway. Tom has supplied the information and now it's up to each of us to do with it as we see fit. It sure did muddy the water though.
Remember the September thread about "new and improved" Pennzoil Platinum, in which a Penzzoil rep was quoted as follows:
"Dear Sir,
It's not a trade secret, we use Group III base oils to formulate our Pennzoil Platinum Synthetic Oils. Just FYI, we are currently introducing an upgrade to our formulation to improve shear stability, resistance to heat and improve resistance to high pressure degradation of the oil. They call this the adaptive molecule technology. The marketing "fluff" will be showing up as advertisements and on the internet(www.PennzoilPlatinum.com) over the coming months."
Seems like refreshing honesty compared to what Mobil is saying.
"Dear Sir,
It's not a trade secret, we use Group III base oils to formulate our Pennzoil Platinum Synthetic Oils. Just FYI, we are currently introducing an upgrade to our formulation to improve shear stability, resistance to heat and improve resistance to high pressure degradation of the oil. They call this the adaptive molecule technology. The marketing "fluff" will be showing up as advertisements and on the internet(www.PennzoilPlatinum.com) over the coming months."
Seems like refreshing honesty compared to what Mobil is saying.
I've read through this thread and have a question. When Mobil had its dispute with Castrol over Syntec GIII being called synthetic and lost notice that Mobil advertised a new version of Mobil 1. If you don't think they stripped out most of the GIV out of their oil you might be wrong. They went to a cheaper formula to match Syntec and others already on the market. This is just business. That's way they have a marketing department, to spin the words. Who would ever know, or more important who would care except for the few. I'm sorry but they are marketing to the money and it isn't us. If Mobil 1 is all GIV except for some GV and some additives, then Mobil learned nothing when Castrol handed them their hat a few years ago. No that Mobil 1 has the reputation it's time to raise the price.
I couldn't believe some of the disrespectful comments towards Tom in that thread. He didn't have to perform those tests, he didn't have to share the info with us, but he did. I'm glad he did, and can't imagine how anyone could be upset with him.
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