Remington 700 series bolt action rifles ARE UNSAFE

[Brian Barnhart]

Early model 700s were equipped with two position safeties that not only locked the trigger, but also locked the bolt handle down. This meant the safety had to be disengaged to unload a chambered round.

These early model 700s also had relatively light trigger pulls (around 2-3 lbs.) The trigger pull weights combined with the safety design made unloading the rifle somewhat more susceptible to accidental discharges.

Well over 20 years ago, the safety was changed to permit cycling the bolt with the safety still in the ON position. Trigger pull settings were also increased and have been approximately 5 lbs. or more for many years.

I suspect the majority of the accidents occurred with the earlier models. Many 700s with the old style safety and lighter trigger pulls were made and are still in people’s hands even today. If taken to an authorized Remington service center or serviced by Remington, the older safeties (including the trigger assembly) will be replaced (at no charge, I believe).

Historically, the 700 sporters were (on average) more accurate out of the box than similar offerings from Ruger, Savage, and Winchester. And the trigger was superior to those from Savage, Ruger, and Winchester. The only major weakness was the smallish extractor.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
I am not saying this could not happen (or even disputing there may be a safety issue), but I have MANY Remington 700 rifles and have never had a problem with any of them. Remington 700 rifles (actions) have been used to create more custom rifles than all others combined and most custom actions are patterned (to some degree) on the Remington action.


On what planet?

 

[Brian Barnhart]

I would think more custom sporters have been built on military Mauser or Springfield actions than 700 actions. Not sure about custom benchrest rifles and how those numbers might compare with custom sporters.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
I would think more custom sporters have been built on military Mauser or Springfield actions than 700 actions. Not sure about custom benchrest rifles and how those numbers might compare with custom sporters.



With a few exceptions, virtually every modern bolt action (including the 700) is based more or less on the Mauser 98 action. When Remington designed the 700 action about the only thing they took from the 98 is the dual opposing locking lugs on the bolt. Everything else from the "washer" recoil lug to the receiver milled from bar stock to the extractor and ejector was designed to be cheap to manufacture. The 700s are accurate, no doubt. But anyone who would spend good money building a custom sporting rifle on that action has a screw loose, IMO.

 

[tom slick]

The Army seems to like the 700.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
The Army seems to like the 700.

And SWAT teams.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: defektes
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Where was the muzzle pointed in all these "incidents"? Why was the guys hand in front of the muzzle? Hold my beer and watch this? I can't figure that one out. Usually when the rifle fires when the safty is taken off the trigger mechanism has been misadjusted. All these accidents were from not following the simple and basic safty rules. Too much TV not enough thinking. This is a very old subject.


yeah, even though the rifles are defective, these people fail one of the most important steps of handling a weapon safely. Always point it in a safe direction.


Do you treat every loaded gun you have as if it might go off at any moment you touch any part of it besides the trigger?

If the gun can go off any time the safety is moved from the ON to the OFF position, then the safety mechanism has become a possible "2nd trigger" on the gun.

If you asked 1000 gun owners if they think it's right that a gun should go off when the safety is switched from ON to OFF, how many do you think would say "yes"?

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
But anyone who would spend good money building a custom sporting rifle on that action has a screw loose, IMO.

How so? And how much "good" money is too much to qualify that statement? I have several stainless 700 based custom rifles that shoot less than 3/8" groups all day long.

I started with $500 rifle and invested a total of $2,750 (gunsmith work [action/bolt blueprinting, barrel fit/chambering, and stock bedding], Hart barrel, and Jewell trigger). Now I could have started with a BAT or a Stolle action and added another $2,000-$2,500 to the cost (action, bottom metal, and stock) for a total of $4,250-$4,750.

Would that more expensive rifle shoot less than 3/8" groups? Probably (and even likely), but could I shoot less than that? No; and is it worth an additional $1,500+ dollars to be able to say I have a rifle that can shoot less than 3/8" groups (but I cannot). Again, the answer is no, so I do not agree that I have a screw loose. I will agree that for $2,750 I have a very accurate rifle that can outshoot most and so what is the point of not using a Remington action?

 

[kballowe]

Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
I would think more custom sporters have been built on military Mauser or Springfield actions than 700 actions. Not sure about custom benchrest rifles and how those numbers might compare with custom sporters.



With a few exceptions, virtually every modern bolt action (including the 700) is based more or less on the Mauser 98 action. When Remington designed the 700 action about the only thing they took from the 98 is the dual opposing locking lugs on the bolt. Everything else from the "washer" recoil lug to the receiver milled from bar stock to the extractor and ejector was designed to be cheap to manufacture. The 700s are accurate, no doubt. But anyone who would spend good money building a custom sporting rifle on that action has a screw loose, IMO.


I've built countless custom rifles on the 700 action. There are many, many, gunsmiths that are still doing this. Part of the reason is that the 700 action is relatively true and relatively straightforward to accurize. The aftermarket custom parts/accesories market is nothing short of remarkable.

The reason that so many "sporterized" those old Mausers is because they were cheap.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

Originally Posted By: kballowe
I've built countless custom rifles on the 700 action. There are many, many, gunsmiths that are still doing this. Part of the reason is that the 700 action is relatively true and relatively straightforward to accurize. The aftermarket custom parts/accesories market is nothing short of remarkable.

The reason that so many "sporterized" those old Mausers is because they were cheap.

I agree. But for dangerous game or maximum reliability in rough conditions a military Mauser action is preferable to any of the more modern actions in several ways IMO.

The military Mauser action was a highly refined design maximizing safety and reliability under battle conditions. Modern actions “based on the Mauser” compromise the safety and reliability of the Mauser to various degrees for lower cost, crisper triggers, higher accuracy, and aesthetics; all of which are more important to the majority of hunters and shooters today.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
I agree. But for dangerous game or maximum reliability in rough conditions a military Mauser action is preferable to any of the more modern actions in several ways IMO.

How do Weatherby rifles compare? When I think of dangerous game, I think of African based gamed and the big Weatherbys or double barrel rifles come to mind and not anything by Remington/Winchester/Savage/Ruger etc.

Most every animal on the American continent can be hunted with any of the aforementioned, but African game would be something else entirely. I cannot say that I heard of many Mausers used in dangerous games hunts (but that does not mean it does not happen--certainly do not pretend to be all knowing and seeing).

 

[tom slick]

Weatherby used to be built on a Mauser action but current models are built by Howa.

Side note:
Weatherby doesn't actually build rifles; They've become a marketing company with in-house repairs.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

You’re correct. Actually a true military Mauser action isn't big enough to handle the large cartridges that are suitable for dangerous game. But there were/are longer commercial (magnum) actions like those on the Whitworth Express rifles that retained most of the features of the military Mauser actions.

I don’t have enough knowledge about the big Weatherby’s to say. I do know the majority of the Weatherby’s I’ve seen (mostly 300 Mag and smaller) don’t use actions very true to the Mauser.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
Side note: Weatherby doesn't actually build rifles; They've become a marketing company with in-house repairs.

But they did in the past, right (the Mark V's)? I have a friend that has a .224 Weatherby Magnum and I think (if memory serves) he was caught up in the Japan versus American/German rifles and which was better (cannot remember which his was). A little sad that Weatherby is reduced to marketing...a bit of an icon IMHO. Also, I thought the Mark V action was a Roy Weatherby invention and not based on any other type of action--is that not correct?

 

[tom slick]

I don't know too much about their history/inventions but they don't currently do any production in house. Their facility is basically a bunch of offices with a small repair shop.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
I don't know too much about their history/inventions but they don't currently do any production in house. Their facility is basically a bunch of offices with a small repair shop.

Sounds like Ben and Jerry's--all sold out; ah globalization...it's working...right? =8^)

 

[tom slick]

It's still family run but they describe their business model something to the effect of "Finding firearm technology that fits with the Weatherby name." Sort of like how Springfield sells the XD line with their name on it. That's why they have fairly normal rifles and shotguns in their lineup, not just magnum and high-end.


Sorry for going way OT.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

I'm not sure Weatherby ever had their own production facilities in the states. Seems it's always been Weatherby marketing guns (sometimes of their own design) made by suppliers of their choosing with Weatherby's name on them.

Kinda similar to Browning. Other than a few hundred rifles made by the old man himself, all the Browning designs were sold to Winchester (at first), or Colt, or Remington (the first autoloading shotgun), or (later) made by other companies (like FN [first] and Miroku [later]) and marketed by Browning. BTW, "John M. Browning: American Gunmaker" is a very interesting read.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: kballowe
There's a thread going on over at the Benchrest forum. These guys do a lot of shooting (competitive shooting) and there are more than a few gunsmiths at this forum. If any of you are interested - here's the link.


Another Remington Discussion


Lot's of jackwagons in that thread. One guy doesn't think Remington should be responsible for a design & guns that are old.

Bill B makes some good sense ... a lot of others on that board don't.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: Brian Barnhart
I'm not sure Weatherby ever had their own production facilities in the states. Seems it's always been Weatherby marketing guns (sometimes of their own design) made by suppliers of their choosing with Weatherby's name on them.


When Roy Weatherby introduced his Mark V he assembled and finished the rifles in his shop in South Gate. He had a foundry there in southern California do the casting and forgings, but he did the stocks in house and finished the guns in house. When demand quickly outstripped his capacity that's when he contracted with JP Sauer in German to build and finish the Mark V in Germany. He did that until the late 60s and then moved production of the Mark V to Howa in Japan. Howa produced the barreled actions and the rifles were stocked and finished at Weatherby's production facility in California. It stayed that way until the mid 90s when production of the Mark V was moved back to the US. The barreled actions have been produced by two different companies with the finished rifles being completed at the Weatherby facility.

Here is my video review of my Mark V (one of the last Howa built guns).