Refrigerant Oil POE test

[buster]

http://www.bvaoils.com/ashrae/mrpl.htm

I want to thank the member who sent me this.

There is a study going on that could potentially explain Redline's poor UOAs. POE seems to react negatively with certain metals causing high bearing wear and corrosion. Maybe this is why everyone else is using PAOs.

For now, I'll stick with PAOs.

[ April 29, 2004, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[KW]

Interesting that the POE becomes corrosive at 150C.

 

[buster]

Do take note, its an on going study and nothing is conclusive. This does raise some serious questions about how valuable RL is for daily drivers if the claims are proven to be true. Looking forward to what the find out. $97,000 test?

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Dude the only question it raises is whether you have ADD or not. Molakule has explained this subject several times.

 

[RobY]

I am a member of the ASHRAE TC 3.2 committee and also on the project monitoring sub-committee following this research. You should remember this project is related to POE refrigeration lubricants and the conditions they are exposed to. In an automotive engine application the 'severe decomposition' and 'corrosion' would not even be measurable. The refrigeration world is concerned when the TAN value increases from 0.02 to 0.20, and iron levels get above 10 ppm. In an automotive ester lubricant the intial TAN would likely be greater than 0.2 out of the bottle.

Different application, different rules, different results.

The TCP additive does do a good job of passivating the iron surfaces by forming a eutectic alloy of iron and phosphorous. In a sealed system refrigeration application, TCP may have side effects you don't want to deal with, especially in the presence of moisture. Some of these systems have to run for 80,000 hours with no oil changes - try that for extended oil drain intervals! It works out to something like over 2 million vehicle miles.

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster buster buster???? How many Redline lubed Toyotas have turned in bad UOA's? DIfferent lubricants, different add packages and grossly different application. AN aircraft engien is much more expensive then a car engine and it is also made with a much geater variaty of alloys for aluminum to berilliam to titanium and everything in between! If POE's were going to be corrisive they would not let them anywear near an aircraft engine!!

 

[buster]

quote:

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Dude the only question it raises is whether you have ADD or not. Molakule has explained this subject several times

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Hey dude, the only question it raises, is why people like you defend a product like you own it?

I think most of us on here want to know why RL's TBN drops off quickly, why lead doesn't always stablized as claimed and why in general RL shows at times 5x higher wear values. Keep drinking your Koolade.

Also, these claims are not just limited to this study, which I do realize is for refrigeration. Mobil/Amsoil and other so called experts have all hinted at similar ideas. Could be they are all full of it, but until I personally see outstanding UOAs (not the ONE Toyota UOA), I'll continue to be skeptical.

I prefer consistancy across the board, not bias selection. Their are some very good UOAs with Redline and I'm aware it's a very good oil for hard driving, but their are some questions that have not been answered. The purpose of this site is to figure out these questions and discuss them. BTW, the chief chemist at Redline, Roy Howell couldn't even explain why Pb in RL is 5x higher in UOA samples.

[ April 29, 2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

buster, Delvac-1 is 26% POE. We have seen plenty of less then excellent M1 and RP UOA yet no one attacks PAO's? Their is more then 1 Redline UOA from a Toyota on the site!

 

[ekpolk]

Yeah, I'd say that a 'fridge and a jet engine are somewhat different operating environments. . .* Moreover, if Redline was eating engines up with acidity, you'd think the word would be out by now.

* From my cockpit days when I had to have all the numbers memorized, I recall that the engine in my aircraft was allowed to spike up to a max EGT (exhaust gas temp) of 815*C with a limit of 707*C max continuous. Obviously, the bearings weren't seeing the full temp of the exhaust gas stream, but I know that the oil was getting heck of a lot hotter than 150*C, and it was a POE. . .

 

[buster]

John, I disagree. Amsoil/Mobil 1 IMO show consistancy. Yes, there are bad UOAs here and there but generally, they are very good. Tooslick's latest UOA in a Turbo with 10k miles on it was still dead smack in the middle of a 30wt oil...with NO LC.

RL seems to only show outstanding UOAs in VW engines and Toyotas due to different metal compositions.

I'm not trying to slam Redline. But lets face it, it's been the strangest oil to understand on this board. It is interesting how Delvac 1, RUMORED to be 26% ester, shows very good wear. Redline according to their website and Dave G, is ALL POE. So it might not be an apples to apples comparison.

[ April 29, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[slider]

snip

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

...but until I personally see outstanding UOAs (not the ONE Toyota UOA), I'll continue to be skeptical.

---

I have UOA's on my Sienna. Both excellent. I pointed this out to you when you posted otherwise the other day. You have even commented after I posted the the second one. LOL!!!

Being skeptical is good.

You need to read and think more carefully and post less.

Use whatever you want.

Regards,

 

[JohnBrowning]

My point about aircraft engine is that their high cost, fragile construction and need to be in the air earning precludes corrisive lubricants. They will not even allow urea based deicers for the taxi ways because the ingestion and contact will cause corosion problem with the engine and air frame. Aluminum and Magnesium make up a huge precentage of an aircraft engine. They are highly reactive and would not last long in a corrisive environment. High nickle steels and exottics make up the rest.

I agree that the compustion environment and power cyle of a turbine engine is vastly different then a recipricating internal compustion 4 cycle engine. I was trying to point out the numerious alloys and cost of aircraft engines.

Their has not even been a study as yet and buster has already made up his mind. The application is not even close to automotive 4 cycle internal combustion engine enviroment.

I think that we should at least have some hard studies before we make a blanket statement about Redline. It is the least used oil on this site when compared to how much discussion it generates.

I also think that it would be hard to ignore Terry Dyson and Molakules endorsements of Redline. They have probably collectively forgoton more about tribology then most on this site will know. Lets consider that Terry Dyson does this for a liveing!

The way I understand it POE base stocks are nothing new and are well understood by chemists and tribologists. It seems to me that with the plethora of Triboligists, Lubrication Engineers and Chemists on this site that something a bit more concrete about weather or not POE's cause corrsion would be available.

I thought that the SAE had a corrsion test that is relatively standard fair for lubricant testing for automotive use? How about all that moly and calcium wouldn't that nutralize any acids in the sumb?

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
My point about aircraft engine is that their high cost, fragile construction and need to be in the air earning precludes corrisive lubricants. They will not even allow urea based deicers for the taxi ways because the ingestion and contact will cause corosion problem with the engine and air frame. Aluminum and Magnesium make up a huge precentage of an aircraft engine. They are highly reactive and would not last long in a corrisive environment. High nickle steels and exottics make up the rest.

I agree that the compustion environment and power cyle of a turbine engine is vastly different then a recipricating internal compustion 4 cycle engine. I was trying to point out the numerious alloys and cost of aircraft engines.

---

In case there was any confusion, I was agreeing with you. Even if we assume that there are some conditions in refirgeration use in which POE may become corrosive, you can't make the leap to claiming that they normally become corrosive above 150*C. The turbine engine world is pretty convincing evidence that whatever happens behind your icebox, POEs in general make fine, stable lubricants in very high temp environments.

 

[Motorbike]

Man O Man , some only read what they want to read out of a post .

After Buster's remark about thanking whoever sent him that link in the next paragraph read the 9th , 15th and 28th words along with his entire second post .

See if you can possibly see his post in a different light after that

 

[buster]

quote:

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buster has already made up his mind

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WHAT!? Guy's RELAX. Take a deep breath and read what I posted. I said it's a study and MAYBE there is some relation. I never said this is proof. My post heading was to give it attention.

Here is what I've been told about RL and why I have some reservations about it.

1. Very high Pb that doesn't ALWAYS stabilize.
2. Loads of Moly- Ethyl claims certain levels of Moly aren't a good combo with certain base stocks.
3. POE is a excellent base oil, but is it ideal for gas engines? I don't know! I think if it were as good in that concentration, others would be using it.
4. Redline's approach is completely unique and the industry doesn't seem to follow their formulation approach. Could mean it's superior, could mean its not.

AM I ALOUD TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THE SUBJECT? CAN I BE A BIT SKEPTICAL? Everything I've read on RL has been THEORY. Any good scientist, which I'm NOT, will try and break theories. I'm no chemist or engineer, but I'm basing my opinions on various articles, opinions and UOAS. GEEEZZZ...

Finally, I realize RL is a tremendous racing oil and has numerous advantages over others in terms of friction modifieing, barrier protection and film strength.

I've also said good things and bad things about various oils just like everyone else. Slider, your UOA was phenomenal and I stand by that. However, many havn't been.

[ April 29, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[HOndaGuy]

One thing you can't doubt on redline is their trans and gear oils. If i had a high performance car or an engine that sludges oil easily, I would pick redline. As for now, mobil 1 gets the job done. The tranny is going to get redline mtl very soon

!!!!!!

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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buster has already made up his mind

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AM I ALOUD TO HAVE AN OPINION ON THE SUBJECT? CAN I BE A BIT SKEPTICAL? Everything I've read on RL has been THEORY. Any good scientist, which I'm NOT, will try and break theories. I'm no chemist or engineer, but I'm basing my opinions on various articles, opinions and UOAS. GEEEZZZ...

---

Many folks have some very strongly held beliefs when it comes to cars. I've seen this for years, and in the short time I've been here, I see the same thing. You questioned Redline, by all accounts, a good lubricant. Some who are deeply bought in don't want to hear that. Last week, I questioned the long-term "goodness" of the 5w-20 grade of oil, not because I think it's bad, but because I just don't yet see an established, many-year track record. I got accused of "throwing rocks". So I'd have to say, "no," you're not allowed to have an controversial opinion, unless you're prepared to take a face shot or two from those who are deeply bought into the idea you are questioning.

 

[Mamala Bay]

I think cause your car cost some $$$$ and will always question the topics of what oil can do. Some have habits that can't be broken, others will try something different...whatever the case, to take constructive questions and answers, one can learn a lot on this forum.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

Buster, Howell doesnt know why people get elevated lead levels in UOA's because Redline does not subscribe to UOA's as measures of engine wear. I am beginning to believe them on that philosophy as well. Redline likely uses more accurate methods of measuring engine wear. I would think UOA data/info is too inconsistent and variable for them to use as a basis to judge oil formulations.

 

[Lubricious]

I just want to say that this has been a thoroughly enjoyable thread, despite the misunderstandings.
This is kind of stuff that makes this board so interesting!