Redline writes about hard deposits

[Blue99]

quote:

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A good dino oil will burn off more completely and cleanly than a synthetic.

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We see the opposite with 2 cycle engines. An ester synthetic will actually remove carbon & tarnish deposits on the piston and exhaust port left by dino oils. Synthetic 2 cycle mix oils have a reputation for low smoke & clean running.

Is this PAO deposit issue documented anywhere else besides the Redline website?

 

[Santo Fontana]

quote:

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Originally posted by Motorbike:
Virgin Amsoil Synthetic 30wt

No Moly

Calcium 1974
Boron 66
Zinc 830

Virgin Mobil Synthetic 30wt

Moly 78
Calcium 2971
Boron 198
Magnesium 12
Zinc 955

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Heres what my 5000 mile asl had in it:


boron..........41
calcium........2200
magnesium.....663
phosphorus.....954
zinc..........1148

 

[mf150]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
PAO oils do not leave more deposits than petroleum based oils.

While it is true that POE's do have a higher degradation temperatures than PAO's, I think these temperatures are so high that your engine would be so fried that oil type wouldn't matter.

Listen, ALL oil companies run tests and hype the results. (and leave out the not so good results) So suddenly we all believe Redline and not trust the other oil companies? Seems strange. I EXPECT you guys to not believe Amsoil's results, that skepticism is fine by me and I don't even post the stuff. But in return a little doubt of the other oil co's marketing is in order.

As for the "weakness" of formulations, at $7.50 at qt, I sorta expect a good one from Redline, and they deliver. Well sorta, and despite the excuses, Redline does just OK in street cars. The comparison could have used the weaker 20W-50 from a company called "Axxxx", dunno (but the deposits from that are not PAO's but more likely vis enhancers). I highly doubt that "A" is Amsoil Series 2000 20W-50! Marketing BS, guys!!!

The Titan labs results, I just don't believe!! You can't compare the results (especially add packs P, Zn, Ca, Mg, etc) between different labs. The results can have errors over +/- 300ppm!!!

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Pablo--

UAO labs don't know how to calibrate their equipment to accuratly read Red Line's formulation. How can you analyze something if you don't understand it first? Red Line is tight lipped about their formulation. They use higher amounts of certain additives, which screw with convetional oil analyzing equipment.

Red Line has the lowest friction coefficient on the market.

 

[Pablo]

mf150 wrote:

quote:

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UAO labs don't know how to calibrate their equipment to accurately read Red Line's formulation. How can you analyze something if you don't understand it first? Red Line is tight lipped about their formulation. They use higher amounts of certain additives, which screw with convectional oil analyzing equipment.

Red Line has the lowest friction coefficient on the market.

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To some extent you are correct, especially with oxidation and nitration. But no formulation hides REAL metals (wear or additives). P and Ca by their elemental nature are difficult to accurately measure as well.

Please prove to me Redline has the lowest coefficient of any oil on the market. Data please. (Nothing against Redline, just want to see the real data)

 

[Terry]

Ted,I think you are on to something... Dragboat ?

[ January 16, 2004, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]

 

[TooSlick]

You can't use lots of metallic antiwear additives, or ash containing detergent/dispersant additives in two stoke oils, or you'd foul the engine with deposits in no time - regardless of the basestock. In a way, it's similar to the lube requirements of piston engine aircraft ....Try a 32:1 mix by adding two quarts of engine oil to every tank of fuel in your car and see how it does.

Esters have inherent solvency, and several times the shear strength in their "neat" condition of PAO's. The basestock does all the heavy lifting when it comes to two stroke oils ....Older petroleum based two stroke oils made use of high molecular weight, petroleum "brightstock" (think of it as a natural "supersyn" PAO), to achieve good scuffing resistance, but required lots of stoddard solvent to maintain any sort of engine cleanliness ...

Engine oils make very good use of metallic anti-wear additives like ZDDP, moly,boron - more importantly, they can use highly effective detergent/dispersant additives like calcium, magnesium, sodium, etc to keep sludge/varnish/carbon deposits from building up in high temp areas.

I think that Redline is thermally decomposing various types of untreated basestocks and this is a very misleading bar chart. Of course, 98% of synthetic oil customers haven't got a clue about organic chemistry, or combustion of hydrocarbon fuels - and that's being charitable...

Tooslick
www.lubedealer.com/Dixie_Synthetics

[ January 16, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]

 

[TooSlick]

I should add that the reason you can get away from ZDDP in two stroke engines is that there are no valvetrain parts to speak of. The fuel/oil mix is sucked in through a hole in the side of the cylinder wall by simple vacuum on the intake/power stoke, and the exhaust gases exit out a similar hole on the compression/exhaust stroke. You simply don't have the high pressure lube situations that you do in a car engine.

The recent, "KT455" pics show the two stroke, piston design ....

 

[MolaKule]

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Now , Redlines race oils have little detergents to prevent detonation " per redline " so are they saying detergents can form deposits ?

Are they including the detergents when they speak of Pao's and deposits ?

Actually though in the first paragraph it only speaks of dino's and that they can leave less deposits than Pao.

I thought Pao's were supposed to burn cleaner than dino ?

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Redline is using old and nearly obsolete oils for comparison. As TooSlick stated, this is an old chart comparing old oils, some pet. some early synthetics.

What they are saying about dinos and PAO's is that certain (other companies) PAO formulations are only slightly cleaner and deposit-less than are dinos; thus imply that any other PAO/ester formulation is inferior to theirs. A bit of chemistry, a bit of marketing hype.

The metallic (ash-type) Detergents, dispersants, and FM/AW's do leave behind some deposits. For racing oils you use as little detergent as you can, since any deposits can cause pre-ignition in high compression, hight temp combustion chambers.

BTW, boron is a non-metallic secondary AW additive.

Synthetic 2-cycle oils use esters (even PEG esters) and/or polybutenes for lubricity and cleanliness, and use MODTC or SbDTC for the AW/antiscuffing compounds.

Dino 2-cycle oils use brightstock (a very thick residual oil), napthenate solvents, and ZDDP for AW protection.

Blend 2-cycle oils use mineral oils, PAO's, Napthenic solvents, and MODTC's for AW/anti-scuffing protection.

Regarding deposits, Pennstate did a test on oils and measured deposits. Somewhere on this board I posted those results.

quote:

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This is exactly why Mazda always cautioned against using synthetics in their rotary engines. They're designed to burn a bit of oil to lubricate the apex seals. A good dino oil will burn off more completely and cleanly than a synthetic.

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The reason for dinos in some Maxda's is the cost. Burning synthetics at that time would have been problematic. Many RX-7's used Mobil 1 and Amsoil. My BIL was one of those guys.

Dinos have so many different size moleules, that the lighter fraction molecules burn-off first, leaving behind varnishes; while the thicker fractions leave behind a tar (a residium), if the heat is high enough.

Esters and polybutenes leave the least deposits of any lubricating fluid, with PAO not far behind.

In fact, esters and polybutenes form a lubricating skin that when burnt it is itself a lubricant.

 

[Mystic]

This is really an interesting post! This is the kind of stuff I expected to see at this web site!

 

[Pablo]

Mola - THAT was excellent and excellent to your true form! Thanks for hanging with us mortals.

 

[Blue99]

TooSlick – This thread is about engine oil & I’m not trying to go off-topic, but isn’t Zinc Dithiophoshate a commonly used anti-wear, anti-piston scuffing additive mixed in 2 cycle oils to provide a 2nd layer of protection when the oil thins out due to high temperature?

 

[Blue99]

Likewise, thanks, Moly, for helping us line all the ducks up in a row!

 

[Terry]

John Browning, the varnish deposits you so accurately describe are thermally activated ep adds in the M1. I see it in many oils depending on add package formulation. The activated coating attracts trash and depleted oil resdiuals including carbon and encapsulates it in brown looking layer , especially noticable on the heads.

Using a too hot, heat blanket/preheater on a race engine can
deplete the ep adds prior to a race with fresh oil so you drag racing guys be careful...not to artificially ruin your new high tech motor oil.

 

[nick778]

So, would we actually want to see this brown varnish type coating leftover from M1 as an indicator that the thernally activated ep adds are working or is it better to 'clean' it up with something like AutoRx?

 

[Terry]

Nick, depends on the engine design. I prefer clean looking metal as I am a perfectionist and believe it or not a bit anal about any engine. If its discoloration from thermal cycling without trash attached to it, OK. If not clean it up. Periodic use of Auto-RX will keep the( bad) color at bay.