Redline updated SDS 90% PAO

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: spiderbypass
Redline does indicate there are POE's included in the Basestock under Section 12 in the paragraph:
Persistence and Degradability: Polyalphaolefins (synthesized hydrocarbons) & polyalkylene glycol synthetic base oils are not considered to be readily biodegradable but may be inherently biodegradable. They are expected to completely biodegrade over extended periods of time. Most synthetic polyol esters are considered readily biodegradable and are expected to completely biodegrade over extended periods of time.


I don't think anybody is disputing the presence of POE in the formula, simply pointing out that it doesn't make up the bulk of it, which appears to be PAO.

 

[Tom NJ]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the SDS in the link lists the two PAO components as less than 60% and less than 30% respectively. So we really don't know the PAO content except that it is less than 90%. Also this SDS covers all of their viscosity grades, so perhaps only the 0W-20 grade approaches 90% PAO. The rest could be substantially less. We can't draw any conclusions on POE content from this multi-product SDS.

Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.

Tom NJ/VA

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: NickT29
The link isn't working for me, but I just want to point out that the percentages reflected on Safety Data Sheets are usually not reflective of exact amounts mixed into the finished product. Oil companies claim that their formulations are trade secrets, and according to OSHA the percentages just have to be ranges.

That is exactly true. They aren't recipes, for certain!

Pablo's point is pretty much what I thought, too. None of that means it's not got significant ester content.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the SDS in the link lists the two PAO components as less than 60% and less than 30% respectively. So we really don't know the PAO content except that it is less than 90%. Also this SDS covers all of their viscosity grades, so perhaps only the 0W-20 grade approaches 90% PAO. The rest could be substantially less. We can't draw any conclusions on POE content from this multi-product SDS.

Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.

Tom NJ/VA


Nope, I think your assessment is spot-on Tom. It shows <90% PAO in total, which is sufficiently vague (like all the other MSDS's) but does point to the products listed being majority PAO IMHO. How much in percentage form I'm sure varies between grades as you've noted.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the SDS in the link lists the two PAO components as less than 60% and less than 30% respectively. So we really don't know the PAO content except that it is less than 90%. Also this SDS covers all of their viscosity grades, so perhaps only the 0W-20 grade approaches 90% PAO. The rest could be substantially less. We can't draw any conclusions on POE content from this multi-product SDS.

Good call.

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Interesting to note that they are using dodecene based PAO instead of the normal 1-decene based product. The dodecene based PAO has a higher VI, higher flash point, and a lower Noack than standard PAO at an equivalent viscosity, but sacrifices a little low temperature flow. Good choice for an oil aimed at higher operating temperatures, especially when blended with POE.

Always refreshing when a real expert posts real info.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Isn't it... not possible/desirable to make an engine oil primarily with esters? AFAIK an oil like that would be terrible when cold, need very short OCIs, etc.


Not desirable, yes, due to seal swelling, but esters are fully capable of achieving all low temperature specifications, and POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs, hence their exclusive use in jet engine oils. The first API approved synthetic motor oils were based 100% on diesters and performed well. The appropriate dosage of ester depends on which ester(s) is used and the rest of the formulation, but I probably would not exceed 50% ester due to seal concerns.

Tom

 

[aquariuscsm]

I remember reading on Redline's website years ago something to the effect of "Our oils are made with ester basestocks",that would make my layman's mind think it was an ester majority based oil.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember reading on Redline's website years ago something to the effect of "Our oils are made with ester basestocks",that would make my layman's mind think it was an ester majority based oil.

I have a package of cookies that say they are "made with real butter", would you also think they are mostly butter?

 

[Buford]

OK, New to this site. One thing I can tell you is Redline has changed over the years. I first started using it in racing in 1979. I just found the last few bottles of 1979 vintage 10W40 oil up in the barn. Back of bottle reads in part: "contains a modified neopentyl polyol ester (Phase 6 synthetic)". It always had additives that settled to the bottom so you had to shake it up before using it. I have used the new Redline since 2008 in my Tundra, stuff is way different looking that the old oil. Now I also run the Redline Race oil in my race car. It is way different than the standard oil. Would love to see a chemical comparision of the three.

 

[bbhero]

Aren't there cookies called butter cookies ?? In those maybe butter is the highest percentage ingredient.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Isn't it... not possible/desirable to make an engine oil primarily with esters? AFAIK an oil like that would be terrible when cold, need very short OCIs, etc.


Not desirable, yes, due to seal swelling, but esters are fully capable of achieving all low temperature specifications, and POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs, hence their exclusive use in jet engine oils. The first API approved synthetic motor oils were based 100% on diesters and performed well. The appropriate dosage of ester depends on which ester(s) is used and the rest of the formulation, but I probably would not exceed 50% ester due to seal concerns.

Tom

Got it. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Buford
OK, New to this site. One thing I can tell you is Redline has changed over the years.

In fairness to Red Line, that's no surprise. Motor oils do reformulate on a regular basis, and Red Line should be no different. I'm not sure I'd want a motor oil that was completely unchanged since 1979.

 

[wemay]

Even while reading an SDS, clever word usage and placement, along with marketing sells oils.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember reading on Redline's website years ago something to the effect of "Our oils are made with ester basestocks",that would make my layman's mind think it was an ester majority based oil.

I have a package of cookies that say they are "made with real butter", would you also think they are mostly butter?


Probably a tiny speck of butter thrown into a HUGE pool of oleo so they wouldn't get sued for false advertising haha

These aren't 100% butter?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
...
These aren't 100% butter?

There was a Salerno plant maybe a mile from my high school...when the wind was right, the smell when we had gym class outside was just heavenly.
The proper way to eat a Salerno butter cookie when I was a kid was to place it over a finger and then nibble all the little "petals" around the edge off.
I don't have that kind of patience anymore...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: spiderbypass
Redline does indicate there are POE's included in the Basestock under Section 12 in the paragraph:
...



So what? So does Mobil 1.

The problem lies in some of what is implied...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember reading on Redline's website years ago something to the effect of "Our oils are made with ester basestocks",that would make my layman's mind think it was an ester majority based oil.


Exactly. Their marketing has been deceptive...

 

[Techneek]

So, according to what I've read so far, I assume that it's common knowledge that the Amsoil SS is also using PAO as the major ingredient in base oil instead of ester too?

I kind of thought SS is a ester based oil too, cause I remember it was so said in some old catalog PDF from Amsoil's website.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I remember reading on Redline's website years ago something to the effect of "Our oils are made with ester basestocks",that would make my layman's mind think it was an ester majority based oil.


Exactly. Their marketing has been deceptive...


Repeated in their video
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4550643/Re:_Very_Well_Said_-_Weights_&#Post4550643

In StevieC's post on sources of oil knowledge.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
The proper way to eat a Salerno butter cookie when I was a kid was to place it over a finger and then nibble all the little "petals" around the edge off.
I don't have that kind of patience anymore...


Haha I ate them that exact same way!! Those things were delicious!!