Redline Response To RL's UOA's
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I agree with Dave at RL, and I believe I stated such a least a couple of times...although I probably have no credibility with anyone here. Most of my knowledge has come from college engineering buddies that work for the big US automakers and practical experience of some 30 years of owning, driving, building, maintaining and racing cars.
I did my first UOA last month and it turned out not to be a great report. Big deal...didn't loose a wink of sleep over it. I'll probably do some more UAO in the future and visit BITOG on a regular basis because there are a bunch of GREAT guys that hang out here and many are very knowledgable in many other practical areas but I just don't think UOAs are going to help anyone find the Holy Grail of engine oils. For sure UOA due help you find problems before they become catastrophic and help you determine OCIs, but other than that, I consider doing UOA and comparing values more of a hobby than a hard science. Maybe someone like Terry with his vast database and years of experience can glean something from UOAs, but I doubt most of us can. Besides, who was it that said that Terry uses RL in most of his cars? My 2 cents.
quote:Dave is a nice guy and is willing to go over any oil analysis you have questions on. I'd go to Terry first over anyone, but if not he, then take a shot. I used an example of where Pb was high around 25ppm and asked him about low TBN we sometimes see with RL.
We have found our oils maintain sufficient TBN with use, as long as sufficient is maintained that is the important issue. Our additive package does react with surface oxides initially more so than some others. This is a reaction on the surface as the additives are reacting and protecting the surfaces. These are not actually wear metals but surface oxides, with extended use these levels tend to drop. I wouldn't say that 25ppm is excessively high or of a reason for concern. Extended drain intervals and low wear are certainly both important characteristics of our products. The test results are particularly accurate, using these inexpensive tests to compare products, trying to determine superiority can be problematic and lead to erroneous conclusions. They are designed to spot and track trends in fleet use. Due to the improved thermal stability of our product, we would expect one of the benefits would be superior cleanliness. Regards, Dave Red Line Oil
Holy ancient thread Batman. Good info Buster.
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This relates to an issue I often hear people state. "Look this must be a good oil, It has been in my car xxx miles and the oil on the dipstick still looks like new!"
How would you interpret this comment? There are two ways;
1. Oil looks clean so there must not be much wear.
2. Oil looks clean so all the dirt is still in my engine instead of suspended in the oil.
There have been some really good analysis of RL oil on engines that have used it for life. I think this highlights two big issues. One, the best thing for your engine is to keep using the same brand (Terry has said this many times). Two, oil analysis can not be used to pick the best brand of oil.
Personally I like Redline because it is made from a really good oil and has really good adds. (ton of moly and a ton of Calcium). Plus, look at those pics of Vad's engine. WOW!!!!!
Redline, Royal Purple, and even Exxon when discussing synthtic blend aircraft oil state that there will be increased wear metals for awhile.
During engine operation and in some cases due to leaching, small amounts of metal end up being suspended in the oil. When a sludge or varnish is formed from oil in the engine, what do you think is incorporated into the film ? When an anti-wear film is formed from components in the oil what do you think is also incorporated into the film ? When some types of fresh oil are added to an angine and the films are disrupted, what do you think is resuspended in the oil ?
Hint...
"Weremetal"
"Weremetal ?"
"There engine, there oil, there metal"
"Why are you talking like that ?"
"I thought you wanted to" :^)
This could be one of my favorite threads that I've read here on BITOG.
This is a reaction on the surface as the additives are reacting and protecting the surfaces. These are not actually wear metals but surface oxides, with extended use these levels tend to drop. I wouldn't say that 25ppm is excessively high or of a reason for concern
We don't feel that spectrum analysis is a good comparative indicator of an
oils quality or protection, I am sure that Mobil would agree. We don't use
spectrum analysis comparisons in our publications as they can be flaky and
unrepeatable, the results vary widely. If these tests actually measured
engine wear, actual engine analysis could be discontinued and an oil would
be designed for good spectrum numbers. We use it as a monitoring device of
an oil over a long drain interval, this is typically what it is designed
for, fleet operators looking for coolant leaks, fuel injector problems and
catastrophic failures. We look for the oil maintaining good viscosity,
sufficient TBN level and reasonable wear levels. The levels seen in the
test are very small and of very small particles, a better indicator is to
actually count particle size and amount. Large wear particles that could
actually be considered harmful or indicate a failing component are not
seen. The initial higher level of metals seen with the Red Line are typical
of what we see and drop over time, these are a factor of the additives
used.
This is RL's stance. Take it for what it's worth. Surface oxides could confuse the labs. RL's reputation is as good as it gets in racing. Those guys do use their racing oils BUT they also do tear downs.
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