Redline oil, is this the best i can get??

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
I'm concerned about the PureOne filter, which last I'd heard might restrict the oil flow too much. Is this still an issue?


How? If the filter becomes too much of a restriction, it just goes into bypass.........
 
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
My '97 Camry V-6 is one of the infamous sludge monster engines. I've driven the engine very hard through a 5-speed manual transmission. It had never shown any signs of sludge, but I played it safe and ran two cycles of Auto-Rx at 104,000 miles.

I've run Red Line 5W30 since that time. At 201,000 miles, I asked the Toyota mechanic to adjust the valves for me. He made the unsolicited comment that the inside of the engine looked as clean and unworn as a car with 20,000 miles.

The "value" people will always attack Red Line. The "results" people like me and rg200amp will just laugh and keep using it.


What were your drain intervals? My brother has been running M1 EP in a 2001 V6 Toyo sludger with 8k-10k mile drain intervals. No sludge and approaching 200k miles.
 
Tom, is it true that POE's have a cleaning effect? We often hear that Redline will keep an engine more clean than a PAO based oil but additives also play a role and I was wondering what you thought about this?
 
POEs help reduce deposits in two ways. First, their higher oxidative stability helps resist deposit formation, and second, their polarity helps dissolve and disperse existing deposits.

The former is meaningful at very high temperatures, such as in jet engines, but may not be apparent in the relatively mild conditions of a car engine. Plus the anti-oxidant additives play an important role.

The latter can help clean a car engine, all else being equal, but is only one factor as the detergent and dispersant additives also play an important role.

POEs add a cleaning factor to a motor oil, but once again it is the total formulation that really matters.

Great base oils will not fix a poor formulation.

Tom NJ
 
Thank you Tom.
cheers3.gif
 
I noticed that there is no discussion about Moly. Redline has large amounts of Moly relative to many other oils (Does Shaeffer's use lots of Moly also?).

Is Moly one of the main reasons that many very high mileage cars, including one I had at 318k, look virtually new when on a constant diet of redline?

This BOTIG main page article has a write up of the pros of Moly: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/moly.html What are the cons? Why don't more oils use higher Moly?
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
POEs help reduce deposits in two ways. First, their higher oxidative stability helps resist deposit formation, and second, their polarity helps dissolve and disperse existing deposits.

The former is meaningful at very high temperatures, such as in jet engines, but may not be apparent in the relatively mild conditions of a car engine. ...
The former likely is meaningful in one specific location of a car engine--the rings--and this is a very important location to keep from having deposits. Thanks for your very informative post.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Film strength is defined as the load or shear rate necessary to break the lubricant film and push the contact into a boundary regime. It is usually measured by a method that progressively increases load until the film ruptures, such as the Falex test, and the results are reported in units of load. Polarity has a strong influence on film strength since the ionic bond between the negatively charged oil molecules and the positively charged metal surface, as well as the intermolecular bonds within the oil, require more load to break. Esters are well known for their high polarity and film strength.

Tom, I missed this yesterday. Thanks for the detailed and nuanced response.

My whole reason for bringing up HTHS was to use it as an analogue to film strength, which I often see done in technical contexts, such as those I quoted. I do understand the difference between the two, but HTHS values are much more commonly available and do often seem to be used in this way. The advantage of HTHS as a measure of viscosity seems to be that it gets around the effects of VIIs and other compounds that interfere with the normal correlation that would otherwise be very clear between viscosity and film strength. Would you agree?

In any case, my argument in this thread is simply that polarity can have a major effect on film strength and consequently on the ability of the oil to limit wear. You seem to have confirmed that in your first paragraph.

Another very general concept I often run into in technical writing on oil is that there is a very clear observed correlation between HTHS and wear. I have seen it written, as I am sure you have, that tests show that the reduction in wear with increasing HTHS implies that wear would be reduced to zero at an HTHS of around thirteen. I'm sure that's not true - wear would certainly reduce logarithmically and not linearly as it approaches zero: however, it does show the importance of true "newtonian equivalent" viscosity as measured in this test and its effects on limiting wear.

Of course, if one were to test every available oil and plot a graph showing wear vs HTHS, some oils would perform above the standard and some below, due to important differences in add packs, blending, and so on. However, the overall trend of the graph would show decreasing wear with increasing HTHS and a high level of correlation between the two. That is at least what I have concluded from the various technical bits and pieces that I have read on the subject over the years.

Finally, as I said before, I am personally not convinced of a superiority of Redline oil over others. However, I am impressed by the positive impact that Redline seems to have had on many people using it, such as in racing, and intrigued by the prospect that the high-polarity/high-HTHS/strong add-pack nature of the product might really make it something special. Obviously, every application is different - but are you aware of any real testing that has compared Redline or other high-POE oils to other Grp IV/V blends? I have not, and would be very interested in the results of any such experiment if it has been carried out.

Thanks again for your reply.
 
Last edited:
TOM NJ seems very knowledgable on this topic, I was wondering what his profesional background is? Chemical engineer?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Moly is a friction modifier as it is used in engines. It does not have much if anything to do with cleanliness.


I was actually thinking about moly in terms of it's coating effect and antiwear not cleanliness.
 
Buster, I didn't push it past 5K intervals, based on a worst case oil analysis I performed in the dead of winter. This engine was typically maxing out dino at 3K and synthetic at 5K.
 
Originally Posted By: qship1996
TOM NJ seems very knowledgeable on this topic, I was wondering what his professional background is? Chemical engineer?


Tom would be the best to answer this but I do know that he retired from the HATCO Corporation, one of, if not the leading manufacture of ester synthetics, mainly for the aviation industry. I believe, but am not sure that Tom formulated some of the products HATCO sells. He is extremely knowledgeable.
 
I think its instructive that AMSOIL has chosen to stick with a blended, PAO/Ester basestock in their latest, "cost is no object", Dominator Racing Oils.

The lube needs and environment of a jet turbine are Very different from an internal combustion engine. A JT oil for example does NOT see combustion byproducts or fuel contamination. It degrades primarily from heat and oxidation.
 
Originally Posted By: qship1996
TOM NJ seems very knowledgable on this topic, I was wondering what his profesional background is? Chemical engineer?
Retired old phart.No, I take that back - retired young phart!Spent my career at Hatco designing esters & formulating, testing, and wholesaling ester synthetic lubricants.Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: glennc
The advantage of HTHS as a measure of viscosity seems to be that it gets around the effects of VIIs and other compounds that interfere with the normal correlation that would otherwise be very clear between viscosity and film strength. Would you agree?


Hi Glenn,

I guess it depends on whether you define a thicker film as a stronger film. A thicker film does require more load to squeeze the film out, but I think of film strength as the resistance to rupture caused by internal and external chemical bonding. For example, a POE and a PAO of the same HTHS viscosity would not be equal in film strength because the POE molecules are attracted to each other (internal bonding) and attracted to the metal surfaces (external bonding). These attractions require more energy (load) to overcome, in addition to what is required to squeeze out the volume of oil in the film.

I can see the HTHS test directly correlating to film strength within a give chemistry, but losing some correlation when comparing different chemistries since it does not break the film and therefore see the bonding influences.

Originally Posted By: glennc
Another very general concept I often run into in technical writing on oil is that there is a very clear observed correlation between HTHS and wear.


All else being equal, a thicker oil film will reduce metal-to-metal contact (boundary regime) if it exists, and thereby reduce wear. Of course all else is rarely equal. As you say, additives play a major role in wear control, and base oil chemistry (film strength) also has an influence. But the thicker the film, the lower the fuel efficiency, so one is playing wear protection against MPG. The most commonly accepted balance seems to be to maximize the fuel efficiency while keeping wear control adequate for most driving conditions and engine life. And it seems to be successful as car engines just don't wear out except in extreme conditions.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
The former likely is meaningful in one specific location of a car engine--the rings--and this is a very important location to keep from having deposits. Thanks for your very informative post.


Agreed, but more likely in diesel engines than the typical passenger car engine.

Tom NJ
 
I would run Redline in my car engine if I had turbo or if I had a 4 banger that I was constantly wringing out. Otherwise, typical off the shelf oil will do for 99% of folks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom