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Redline Oil Compromises Mileage & HP??
- Thread starter Ron AKA
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Ron AKA,
Here's an idea...rather than debate theories, do some controlled testing in your car with oils of varying HT/HS viscosities. I suggest using 2.6 Cp,3.1, Cp and 3.5 Cp, 30wts. You an even use a 4.1 Cp, 5w-40 HDEO to see an extreme effect.
Report back on fuel efficiency, oil consumption and subjective NVH....
That's what a real engineer would do....
TS
Here's an idea...rather than debate theories, do some controlled testing in your car with oils of varying HT/HS viscosities. I suggest using 2.6 Cp,3.1, Cp and 3.5 Cp, 30wts. You an even use a 4.1 Cp, 5w-40 HDEO to see an extreme effect.
Report back on fuel efficiency, oil consumption and subjective NVH....
That's what a real engineer would do....
TS
No need. The Shell guy has done it already. You just have to read the report.quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
Here's an idea...rather than debate theories, do some controlled testing in your car with oils of varying HT/HS viscosities. I suggest using 2.6 Cp,3.1, Cp and 3.5 Cp, 30wts. You an even use a 4.1 Cp, 5w-40 HDEO to see an extreme effect.
Report back on fuel efficiency, oil consumption and subjective NVH....
That's what a real engineer would do....
Ok, I'll report back on the 0w20, SM, HTHS 2.6 phase in about 12 years. After that, then perhaps the -10w0, SX, HTHS 1.9......
Ron, have you read the report?
Anyway, I think the author of the paper was trying to show that we can save gas and not destroy our engines by switching to a stout 5w20 oil with a HTHS of 2.9 or better. Let's see from your list which of the oils he would recommend... Hmm, looks like only one : REDLINE.
Looks like the oil did well, of course it does have a pretty high HTHS for a 20 weight.quote:
Oh look! 10 cSt! Its essentially a 30 weight!quote:
Anyway, I think the author of the paper was trying to show that we can save gas and not destroy our engines by switching to a stout 5w20 oil with a HTHS of 2.9 or better. Let's see from your list which of the oils he would recommend... Hmm, looks like only one : REDLINE.
For sure, and it looks like you now have too! As I've noted a few times before the paper appears to have been written in 2000. A little water (oil?) has flowed under the bridge since then. The oil industry manufacturers are now at ILSAC GF-4, except for a few like RP, Redline, and Torco lagging behind. Wonder why?
Because there are people out there (this may come as a shock to you) that don't shop for oil by who has the least amount of zinc and who has the absolute lowest possible HTHS.
There are people interested in protecting their engines at any cost; thus they are shopping for an expensive boutique oil.
That's all. Most of the world doesn't wear a pocket protector.
There are people interested in protecting their engines at any cost; thus they are shopping for an expensive boutique oil.
That's all. Most of the world doesn't wear a pocket protector.
It will be interesting to see how long the general public continue to belive this, or just come to the conclusion that these small time companies just don't have the technology, or likely more accurately the resources to keep pace. And speaking of keeping pace, we gave up on pocket protectors years ago. We don't even use HTHS to keep us safe. It's the tipped up tie that deflects all evil!
Believe me, they are businessmen. If they thought there was more money in selling 0w-WD40 to people like you, they would be doing it.
One more time. Redline would have to reduce the amount of ZDDP in order to be SM rated. That would reduce the protection to the engine. Yes, the higher amount of ZDDP will poison cats quicker, so that is the trade off.
You make statements like the decision is so obvious, but it is not.
All these years of using Red Line and now you tell me it hurts my gas mileage. I never get anything right. All these years of driving carefully, staying off the brake pedal, thinking ahead while driving, checking the tire pressure every week, driving a tiny little car and keeping it tuned up, and it's all been wasted. I'm using the wrong oil. My 22 year old Civic is heading for 400k miles and not even a valve job, and now I find this out. I'm crushed. I had no idea, that that I should worry about gas mileage when picking an oil. Stupid me, I just bought a small car, instead. This really gets me. I've been driving around, mixing it up with real cars on the freeways and I could have been smashed like a bug, and for what. I'm using the wrong oil. And TooSlick, I though you were my friend. Why didn't you tell me. What could be worse. I guess it's not the worst that could happen, like comming home and finding your wife just bought an Audi. Speaking of my dear wife, I hope she does not read what Winston has to say about using Red Line. If she finds out that I've poisoned the cat I'll have to eat my own cooking. I think I'm going to call Terry. With a kid off to college he may have a spare room.
LarryL,
you may as well go out and shoot that Civic and run it over a bluff. The Redline has ruined the engine with thick poison.
Maybe the cat licked a Redline can after an oil change and got moly poisoning? Too much moly causes hair and teeth to fall out
you may as well go out and shoot that Civic and run it over a bluff. The Redline has ruined the engine with thick poison.
Maybe the cat licked a Redline can after an oil change and got moly poisoning? Too much moly causes hair and teeth to fall out
You would think if they were smart guys they would find another antiwear compound?
Sorry, I don't teach engineering via the internet.
In any event, I'll concede that the oil pump represents only about 27% of the internal resistance, excluding volumetric pumping. If it was as insignificant as you suggest, NASCAR engines wouldn't limit their oil pressures to no more than 50 psi at 9000 RPM. Other race engines similarly fine tune the amount and pressure of oil delivered to minimize this parasitic loss.
What incentive do they have to do that? Their customers do not want that. And I'm pretty sure they are smart guys.
I don't know why you can't accept the fact that they don't market their oil to you. You obviously don't like their product, so don't buy it. Pick another oil and get on with your life.
Let me repat two points that some people have missed:
1. You can get improved power by lowering viscosity and suffering dramatically increased engine wear.This has been proved to me in the Formula V series. The word is PROVED, not theorized.
2. Oil viscosity tests performed in 1988 are still valid and reinforced by later studies. Thin oils do not provide as much engine protection as thicker oils as proved by field failures. The "average duty cycle" does not apply to the vehicles that failed. If you throw out failed vehicles what have you proved? I see SAE tests that will not consider tests that cause mechanical failures to be valid tests.The tests are designed so that parts are NOT stressed to failure. What is the sense in that? They want all engines to pass the test, and then compare wear to determine oil performance. Those are not the odds you get when you own a car.
With respect to Redline's report that power improved 3% with their oil, they are being modest. We turned a 5% maximum gain on aircooled VW motors dyno tuned for off road racing using Redline Vs. Valvoline. I did the test.
1. You can get improved power by lowering viscosity and suffering dramatically increased engine wear.This has been proved to me in the Formula V series. The word is PROVED, not theorized.
2. Oil viscosity tests performed in 1988 are still valid and reinforced by later studies. Thin oils do not provide as much engine protection as thicker oils as proved by field failures. The "average duty cycle" does not apply to the vehicles that failed. If you throw out failed vehicles what have you proved? I see SAE tests that will not consider tests that cause mechanical failures to be valid tests.The tests are designed so that parts are NOT stressed to failure. What is the sense in that? They want all engines to pass the test, and then compare wear to determine oil performance. Those are not the odds you get when you own a car.
With respect to Redline's report that power improved 3% with their oil, they are being modest. We turned a 5% maximum gain on aircooled VW motors dyno tuned for off road racing using Redline Vs. Valvoline. I did the test.
I find it interesting that Redline needs to stay qualified to SL which allows less wear than SM. However most other manufacturers can qualify to both SM and SL.
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