Redline MTL 75w80- Ferrari Mondial QV gearbox improvement

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Many Ferrari 308/Mondial gear boxes have 2nd gears that lock you out until the car has some temp in the fluid then it works fine. They don't grind or become notchy, they just don't want you in 2nd until they are ready. Virtually every one of these I've driven has done this but I found some well respected shops have started using Redline MTL in the last few years and many have reported the slow shifting into 2nd goes away. The passages are pretty small and until the oil is warmed up it just doesn't flow enough to move through quickly. Instead of the factory 80w90, the Redline MTL is 75w80. Pretty thin stuff but several bigger specialists have recommended it as they havent see any increased wear in years with people running it. No hypoid gears in our transaxle so no need for a gl5.
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I put about 80 miles on the car the following couple days and it is shifting really well. The Redline MTL is noticeably better in a cold gearbox and the shift to 2nd can be done immediately now and warm it feels the same as before. Very few fluids have I used that I can say made a night and day difference but this one did what I hoped it would. It’s not a cure all for shifting issues but this was a really specific issue with thick oils and smaller passages so for these gearboxes at least, I recommend it.
 
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It's a TOP oil. Other question is about internals wear because lower visco, in other hand RL keeps visco better than other thick oils.
 
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To my understanding, wich could be wrong, in a transmission it´s not mostly the Viscoity of the oil wich affects wear, it´s mostly the EP additives.
I also had great succes in curing similar problems in Honda gear boxes with a thinner oil and/or Liqui Moly Mos² Transmission additive.
You could also feel the difference in shifting quality between oil manufacturers in the same viscosity range.

Biggest problem is, that most people simply dont belive it when you share your expirience.
 
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If a particular oil has to be used to ensure good shifts, the transmission has an issue and is not at 100%.
 

jayg

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If a particular oil has to be used to ensure good shifts, the transmission has an issue and is not at 100%.
Absolutely false.

These were specced with ancient AGIP grades that did not flow well cold. From new the 2nd gear reluctance was noted by many many owners. Several race teams and other aftermarket Ferrari shops have modified the passages to ensure more flow so cold shifting into 2nd works. Instead of doing that, a thin lube works the same and many people have found this out over the last 10-12 years as discussed on the Ferrari board.

I’m just sharing the experience here in case an owner of this gearbox sees it here but may not be on the Ferrari forum with years of discussion on the topic. If your 300k mile Hyundai grinds 2nd, this won’t fix it. If your low mileage 308/MQV which also had a 2nd gear that didn’t want to let you in until 10 minutes down the road but otherwise shifts perfectly and DOESNT have an issue……then try this as many have with great results.
 

jayg

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Today, I've actually gotten private messages from people who have never worked on a Ferrari , never seen the inside of this gearbox, don't know what my owner's manual specs and why, and have told me I am wrong about the passages being too small. It wouldn't be BITOG without people with no experience with something becoming internet experts.

This is a snippet from the Ferrari owners magazine with a very respected Ferrari tech explained why the passages are too small for the oil unless it it hot and thin and how to drill it to get more flow from 15+ years ago. Then they figured out MTL is thin cold but also works great hot AND doesn't cause extra wear so just do that.

1660495022972.png


This issue goes deeper on why Ferrari specced the factory gear lube they way they did and why GL4 is best for them and why GL5 doesn't matter with the lack of hypoid gears and the internals of this transaxle but I'm not here to explain that. It's been done for over a decade on dedicated forums.

Again this is a specific issue with this particular gearbox and I'm giving targeted advice for JUST this gearbox. For those who sent private messages with warnings who admitted they don't know this gearbox, never worked on one, never seen one, never read an owners manual for one, maybe just keep your comments to yourself?
 
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Well, it isn't surprised RL MTL 75W-80 feels much better than that stoneage Agip 80W-90 GL-5.
RL MTL is supposed to be viscosity @ 40°C at 50.8-56.2 CSt while I'd bet that old Agip 80W-90
is more than twice as thick at 40°C, but likely even more different to MTL near freezing (if one
would drive a Ferrari that cold). I found 144 CSt at 40°C for Eni Rotra MP 80W-90 GL-5.
I believe this transverse transmission (like its engine) will run sufficiently with a GL-4 instead GL-5.
However again, it's also thinner. What transmission, it's a ZF? What torque is this transmission
designed/specified for? Any transmission designer specs a specific torque limit. IF the engine is
considerably below that rating it's likely to run with a thinner oil.
Probably a good idea to not beat this transmission at higher AZ summers. It's an old car anyway.
 

pbm

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I wonder how a good quality synthetic 75w90 gear oil would work in this transmission?
The Royal Purple Gearmax that I recently mentioned in another thread claims to be GL4/GL5.
I would think it would be better cold than 80w90 and better hot than 75w80 but what do I know....I'll probably never get to drive a Ferrari to find out.
 

MolaKule

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To my understanding, wich could be wrong, in a transmission it´s not mostly the Viscoity of the oil wich affects wear, it´s mostly the EP additives.
Just to clarify, we don't use EP additives in manual transmission fluids, we use Anti-wear additives. EP additives are relegated to GL-5 differential lubes.
 
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I run that stuff in my Mazda 6MT and it produces notably better shifting than the factory fluid. Same vis and specs, but its just a better fluid. I've got ~220k on my 6, its used it since I swapped the factory fluid at about 30k and I've had nothing but good things to say about it the entire time.
 
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Just to clarify, we don't use EP additives in manual transmission fluids, we use Anti-wear additives. EP additives are relegated to GL-5 differential lubes.
Just curious... Are AW additives a more recent GL-4 chemistry item? I thought that GL-4 also had EP additives, but rather, a whole lot less than GL-5's do...?
 

MolaKule

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Just curious... Are AW additives a more recent GL-4 chemistry item? I thought that GL-4 also had EP additives, but rather, a whole lot less than GL-5's do...?
No not today.

For MTL's, the Anti-wear component need only to be a good dose of ZDDP, yielding about 1500ppm of phosphorus and zinc, and about 2500ppm of sulfur. Base oils are composed of lower viscosity types.

Hypoid differentials are highly 'loaded' that is, they have high contact forces and thus need, as their primary EP additive, multi-functional Phosphates and sulfated esters. Secondary EP additives may be composed of Potassium Borates. Base oils are composed of much higher viscosity types.
 
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Today, I've actually gotten private messages from people who have never worked on a Ferrari , never seen the inside of this gearbox, don't know what my owner's manual specs and why, and have told me I am wrong about the passages being too small. It wouldn't be BITOG without people with no experience with something becoming internet experts.

This is a snippet from the Ferrari owners magazine with a very respected Ferrari tech explained why the passages are too small for the oil unless it it hot and thin and how to drill it to get more flow from 15+ years ago. Then they figured out MTL is thin cold but also works great hot AND doesn't cause extra wear so just do that.

View attachment 112476

This issue goes deeper on why Ferrari specced the factory gear lube they way they did and why GL4 is best for them and why GL5 doesn't matter with the lack of hypoid gears and the internals of this transaxle but I'm not here to explain that. It's been done for over a decade on dedicated forums.

Again this is a specific issue with this particular gearbox and I'm giving targeted advice for JUST this gearbox. For those who sent private messages with warnings who admitted they don't know this gearbox, never worked on one, never seen one, never read an owners manual for one, maybe just keep your comments to yourself?
I've read this with great interest... including the max-1/8" relief hole old-way-of-dealing-with the issue. I guess I understand that this matter exists with the 308gt4 and the Mondials (prior to the final iteration - it being north/south engine/transaxle orientation)..For that matter, also for all 308's too. But I have heard that in fact all Ferrari's with manual 'boxes are reluctant to shift into 2nd when cold... ?

Now you describe, for all intents and purposes, the box actually preventing the shift (unless very inappropriate force is used... i.e. BAD). I guess the answer may lie that the other manual 'box F-cars would suffer from gravelly- (meaning damaging) shifts into 2nd gear when cold, not an in effect "Lockout" that the transverse box cars do...

And so conventional wisdom had it that you either started in second 'til warm), or shifted from first to third 'til warm... and most specifically you do not attempt to downshift into 2nd 'til warm. You needed to nurse the car to full operating temp. I'm sure this'd be a PITA - but some folks would perhaps say that that's part of the mystique and "process" of owning an F-car. Me, I've never owned or driven a car where I didn't have to baby 2nd gear until it was warm.

Finally, I have heard it said that for some reason RL MTL loses the effect of its magic elixir "shift sauce" somewhat quicker than many mtl's do, resulting in a deteriorated shift smoothness. Some folks would say there's no magic elixir in this product... 'Ida know... I think folks' experience with RL MTL varies, but it undeniably changes the feel of a 'box, often for the better.
 
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No not today.

For MTL's, the Anti-wear component need only to be a good dose of ZDDP, yielding about 1500ppm of phosphorus and zinc, and about 2500ppm of sulfur. Base oils are composed of lower viscosity types.

Hypoid differentials are highly 'loaded' that is, they have high contact forces and thus need, as their primary EP additive, multi-functional Phosphates and sulfated esters. Secondary EP additives may be composed of Potassium Borates. Base oils are composed of much higher viscosity types.


How does this work then with MTF's that claim both GL-4 and GL-5?
 

MolaKule

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How does this work then with MTF's that claim both GL-4 and GL-5?
So here we are usually talking about "transaxles" in mostly passenger vehicles and some light trucks, a gearbox in which the transmission and differential gearing are in one case. In many of these gearboxes, the differential is a spider gear with light to moderate loading and a GL-4 MTF is specified.

In Subaru (and some other) manual gearboxes, the sump is shared with both the differential and the transmission gearing. The differential is a hypoid type and in this application, the MTF has to be protection rated for GL-5. A healthy dose of anti-wear and an EP additive is included. Other primary chemistry's, such as anti-corrosion, anti-rust, and metal inhibitors are upped to compensate for the Phos-Sulfur and other EP additives that may be present.

Of course, the friction modifiers are always included to promote smooth synchronizer assembly operation.
 
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So here we are usually talking about "transaxles" in mostly passenger vehicles and some light trucks, a gearbox in which the transmission and differential gearing are in one case. In many of these gearboxes, the differential is a spider gear with light to moderate loading and a GL-4 MTF is specified.

In Subaru (and some other) manual gearboxes, the sump is shared with both the differential and the transmission, and the differential is a hypoid type. In this case, the MTF has to be protection rated for GL-5. A healthy dose of anti-wear and an EP additive is included. Other primary chemistry's, such as anti-corrosion, anti-rust, and metal inhibitors are upped to compensate for the Phos-Sulfur and other EP additives that may be present.

Of course, the friction modifiers are always included to promote smooth synchronizer assembly operation.

Are these lubricants likely to cause issues in manual transmissions that don't ask for these lubricants?

For example, the two MTF's I go to (Fuchs Sintofluid 75w80 and Millers Oils TRX 7w5w80) are both rated GL-5. I use them in older gearboxes such as the R380 in the Defender.
 

MolaKule

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Here is the latest list of MTF's often considered popularly as “synchromesh” fluids.

C.
The next higher viscosity MTL group is in the 8.0 cSt to 8.9 cSt Range would be:
  1. Castrol Syntrans V FE (8.0cSt)
  2. Redline DCTF Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid (8.1 cSt)
  3. BG Synchroshift II (8.2 cSt)
  4. Valvoline MTF Part Number 811095 8.8 cSt
  5. RAVENOL PSA (8.9 cSt)
  6. Millers Oils TRX SYNTH 75W80 8.7 cSt (Carries a GL-5 rating as well).
  7. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF
  8. Motylgear 75W-80

D. The next higher viscosity MTL group in the 9.0 to 9.5 cSt range is (SAE 75W80):
  1. Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0 cSt
  2. Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.1 cSt
  3. RAVENOL SSG 9.5 cSt
E. The next group of MTL’s are in the 9.6 to 10.X cSt range (SAE 75W80):

1. Redline MTL 75W80
2. Amsoil MTF 10.1 (was 9.7 cSt)
3. GM Synchromesh Series 10.1 cSt
4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF
7. Motylgear 75W-80
 
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