Redline 75w85 for BMW

[kschachn]

Right from the start the winter rating of the oil will have to be determined and that’s not an easy test. Then a wear test, then the effectiveness of the EP additives. Also a shear test.

I know you’re trying here but I also know you don’t really believe your argument either.

 

[bulwnkl]

What I believe is that manufacturers refuse to disclose specs for financial reasons. Meaning, they make more money if they try to hide requirements and insinuate (or sometimes claim directly) that only ‘their’ products will work. When they refuse to disclose, all that means is you don’t know how weak or hollow the spec is.

A ‘proprietary’ gear or transfer case lube spec may be as simple as “75W85, GL-4,” or it may have actual wear requirements in a specific test or a Brookfield window on top of “75W85” or it may require some purple coloring. Not knowing does NOT imply that the spec is complex or difficult to meet or ‘good’ at all. The only thing it tells you is that the pusher of the so-called ‘spec’ wants to make more money than they might if they just published the (possibly-extremely-basic) spec.

Because you don’t know, you can’t any more claim that a simple test _won’t_ find a match than you can claim that it will.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah I know you’re one of those guys.

Sorry but grand and wild eyed conspiracy theories just aren’t my thing

 

[bulwnkl]

It’s called running a business. You do what maximizes profits.

 

[edyvw]

What I believe is that manufacturers refuse to disclose specs for financial reasons. Meaning, they make more money if they try to hide requirements and insinuate (or sometimes claim directly) that only ‘their’ products will work. When they refuse to disclose, all that means is you don’t know how weak or hollow the spec is.

A ‘proprietary’ gear or transfer case lube spec may be as simple as “75W85, GL-4,” or it may have actual wear requirements in a specific test or a Brookfield window on top of “75W85” or it may require some purple coloring. Not knowing does NOT imply that the spec is complex or difficult to meet or ‘good’ at all. The only thing it tells you is that the pusher of the so-called ‘spec’ wants to make more money than they might if they just published the (possibly-extremely-basic) spec.

Because you don’t know, you can’t any more claim that a simple test _won’t_ find a match than you can claim that it will.

There is no reason for BMW to do that. BMW doesn’t even require transfer case fluid change until wear indicator warns and that usually happens after 100k.
Engine oils are different thing and BMW charges approval which is really cheap.
BMW (non M) differentials are easy on fluid. Numerous BMW’s that never had differential fluid change.
That is not where BMW makes money.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

I’m sorry, I just can’t believe that BMW has some magical spec fluid that is better/different than anything any other fluid maker can produce.
The ZF8 transmission had been proven to do just fine with even Valvoline maxlife. The ZF fluid is not special. I’m not at all concerned with running something other than the expensive factory fluid.
Interesting about the shockproof, I’ll be interested to chat with Redline about longevity of the fluid vs the more “normal” fluids.
Thanks for the advice about the 2012-2015 models, I didn’t realize that it was 100% of these models that needed the guides and chain replaced. I am a mechanic, so it doesn’t bother me too much, but it’s definitely something to consider.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

There is no reason for BMW to do that. BMW doesn’t even require transfer case fluid change until wear indicator warns and that usually happens after 100k.
Engine oils are different thing and BMW charges approval which is really cheap.
BMW (non M) differentials are easy on fluid. Numerous BMW’s that never had differential fluid change.
That is not where BMW makes money.

BMW does not care what happens to anything after the warranty is up. Of course they don’t require a fluid change in something that will last for longer than the warranty.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

As big of a Red Line fan as I am, Shockproof is not really a great street fill. I played that game in the Subaru community and you'd certainly be better served by a top shelf "traditional" gear oil. The longevity isn't there and there are rumors it doesn't handle moisture (including humidity?) very well.

On the ZF8- Usually agree there are better fluids than OEM, but in this case the evidence just isn't there that we "need" something else. Ended up just throwing Lifeguard 8 in mine since failures are so uncommon even without servicing them. In the future I may use aftermarket ZF8 specific fluid (Ravenol, Pentosin, etc.). The key here is friction coefficients and that would be really hard to figure out.

Back to the transfer case- there is a known longevity problem here unlike the ZF8 so it's only natural to try "curing" it. Not a pro mechanic who sees these cars daily of course, but clutch problems seem to be the usual issue, and regular changes with matching tires are the likely solution. My 3-series ate it's transfer case at 165k mi after the prior owner put mismatching tires on it...doubt it ever had a fluid change, though clearly they can last a long time. Same as the ZF8, friction coefficient is very important for the clutches and I ended up removing the MT-LV in favor of Ravenol DTF-1 while doing other maintenance.

In theory xDrive transfer cases are nothing special compared to other active transfer cases which take ATF, etc. but we have no idea why the manufacturer has specified this fluid. While the viscosity and additives may look like MTF, the friction properties could be wildly different. Surely if they could consolidate supply chain/stock into one fluid they would have.

Hyundai/Kia/Genesis specify TF0870 as well since they also use Magna ATC units like BMW. VW/Audi/Porsche appears to use a few different fluids depending on model and year, but have not investigated into hardware differences.



Also agree to avoid any N20 prior to April (I think) 2015 build date due to the timing chain disaster- unless it's been replaced or you want to replace it. My local BMW independent mentioned having some cars which are in for their second chain replacement, but it's unclear if the first replacement was with the updated parts or not.

This definitely is concerning to me, as I’ve wondered if the updated parts are really a fix or will just be another maintenance item.

I’ve seen a few BMW based companies say that it’s the eco mode and stop start system lugging the engine that really doesn’t the damage to the timing system, and simply putting it in sport mode for everything but highway driving will reduce the issue to a memory in the back of your mind. An interesting theory.

 

[edyvw]

This definitely is concerning to me, as I’ve wondered if the updated parts are really a fix or will just be another maintenance item.

I’ve seen a few BMW based companies say that it’s the eco mode and stop start system lugging the engine that really doesn’t the damage to the timing system, and simply putting it in sport mode for everything but highway driving will reduce the issue to a memory in the back of your mind. An interesting theory.

Biggest issue with Eco mode is potential LSPI event. But N20 is not engine with that issue. B48 on other hand is bit susceptible to it (not many reported).
Timing chain guides are just bad. No sugarcoating there!

 

[edyvw]

BMW does not care what happens to anything after the warranty is up. Of course they don’t require a fluid change in something that will last for longer than the warranty.

They do. That is why differentials are not hard on fluid and that is why there is wear sequence for transfer case as well as adoption sequence once fluid is changed.

 

[BMW Dom]

I have seen too many posts with issues involving Redline and Motul options for BMW TC.

Would you mind linking those? Thanks

 

[TexasRally]

I’ve seen a few BMW based companies say that it’s the eco mode and stop start system lugging the engine that really doesn’t the damage to the timing system, and simply putting it in sport mode for everything but highway driving will reduce the issue to a memory in the back of your mind. An interesting theory.

Quick search reveals that the timing chain is the same on the N20/N52/N55 but the guides and oil pump chain are different. Since a 4-cylinder produces fewer torque pulses/combustion events per crank revolution there is more mechanical stress on the chain. Given that the 6-cylinder engines were designed first it would be believable that the chain wasn't built to handle harsher 4-cylinder duty.

Also, there has been some mixing of terminology related to the chain problem, but there are two phenomena at play:

• Chain stretch - lengthening of the chain due to mechanical stresses causing the inner/outer plates to elongate. Resolution is updated parts since the chains eventually contact the guides, break off chunks, and clog the oil pickup.

• Chain wear - apparent "lengthening" of the chain from erosion to the link pins where they contact the various cogs and sprockets. The chain technically is not getting longer, but since the contact faces are set further apart the chain has more slack. This is what the 2018 LL-01 revision is designed presumably to prevent (though it's unclear how much erosion contributes to failures compared to mechanical stretching above).

 

[edyvw]

Would you mind linking those? Thanks

I would have to research. You can find a lot on e90post, f30post, f80post etc.

 

[edyvw]

Quick search reveals that the timing chain is the same on the N20/N52/N55 but the guides and oil pump chain are different. Since a 4-cylinder produces fewer torque pulses/combustion events per crank revolution there is more mechanical stress on the chain. Given that the 6-cylinder engines were designed first it would be believable that the chain wasn't built to handle harsher 4-cylinder duty.

Also, there has been some mixing of terminology related to the chain problem, but there are two phenomena at play:

• Chain stretch - lengthening of the chain due to mechanical stresses causing the inner/outer plates to elongate. Resolution is updated parts since the chains eventually contact the guides, break off chunks, and clog the oil pickup.

• Chain wear - apparent "lengthening" of the chain from erosion to the link pins where they contact the various cogs and sprockets. The chain technically is not getting longer, but since the contact faces are set further apart the chain has more slack. This is what the 2018 LL-01 revision is designed presumably to prevent (though it's unclear how much erosion contributes to failures compared to mechanical stretching above).

It is not chain that is issue on N20c but guides.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

It is not chain that is issue on N20c but guides.

Dude, every literary and video source with credibility says that both are an issue. The chain lengthens and the links get loose, and the guides break. It was an engineering oversight by BMW to put the inline six chain on the 4cyl.

 

[PoorMans180SX]

Would you mind linking those? Thanks

I've just done a solid three hours of searching and reading on multiple forums, and I can't find a single post about transfer case failure related to fluid other than old-ass factory fluid. Found quite a few Motul DCTF and Ravenol success stories though (and glowing Amazon reviews), along with plenty of fear-mongering over anything other than DTF-1 being a recipe for disaster.

 

[Mainia]

OK, if it is a Hypoid design it needs a GL-5 rated gear lube.

GM and others have been specifying of late a slightly lower viscosity gear lube of 75W85, but it is GL-5 rated.

MT-LV 70W/75W GL-4 Gear Oil is not something that you should use in a differential.

Hyundai uses MT-LV 70w75 GL-4 in their trans/diff "one cavity" oil for their 7 speed DCTs. 1/4 of Hyundai's have this trans.

 

[edyvw]

Dude, every literary and video source with credibility says that both are an issue. The chain lengthens and the links get loose, and the guides break. It was an engineering oversight by BMW to put the inline six chain on the 4cyl.

Ok. I mean I didn’t dwell too much into this engine as I personally would never go for it next to N55. But then, updated guides are not real solution. So even if you get model after 04/2015 you are up for some work.
Just get N55.

 

[edyvw]

I've just done a solid three hours of searching and reading on multiple forums, and I can't find a single post about transfer case failure related to fluid other than old-ass factory fluid. Found quite a few Motul DCTF and Ravenol success stories though (and glowing Amazon reviews), along with plenty of fear-mongering over anything other than DTF-1 being a recipe for disaster.

Than try it. Pay $xxxxx and than experiment with $30 cheaper fluid just because.
Look bmwpost forums but not just F30. People experiment with these fluids all the time. In TC, DCT etc.
And what is success story? How you measure that?
And key question, what are you trying to achieve?

 

[PoorMans180SX]

Than try it. Pay $xxxxx and than experiment with $30 cheaper fluid just because.
Look bmwpost forums but not just F30. People experiment with these fluids all the time. In TC, DCT etc.
And what is success story? How you measure that?
And key question, what are you trying to achieve?

Thanks, when I acquire the car I will. I looked at plenty of other bimmer forums, trust me. I read all about X3's, how the deisel 4cyl's eat T-cases for breakfast lunch and dinner, even read back about E90 transfer cases. A success story is someone using this fluid and not having transfer case clutch issues, which plenty of xdrive cars have prematurely.

The goal is increased reliability and longevity through proper fluid maintenance without paying for a pointless "certification".