Redline 10w40, 11k miles, 03 Civic EX

[satterfi]

Lab comments: (Predictive Maintenance Service for all tests)


Dirt (silicon) continues to decrease, however there is a slight increase in copper (first limit = 20ppm). Oil viscosity is high with the maximum limit for SAE 40wt oil as 16.3 Cst. In addition, the TBN value is low compared to previous tests. All other things being equal, I would say that you have reached the maximum mileage on your oil, and may want to consider cutting back the interval between oil changes.

code:

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2003 Honda Civic 6/29/2003 9/14/2003 5/31/2004

Total Miles 1643 4634 15709

Miles on Oil 1643 2991 11075 New



Oil factory fill Redline 10w40 Redline 10w40 Redline 10w40





Iron 18 12 19 1

Cr 0 0 0 0

Pb 12 6 31 0

Cu 10 15 25 0

Sn 13 18 19 17

Al 18 12 19 2

Ni 0 0 0 0

Ag 0 0 0 0

Si 81 32 21 16

B 38 6 2 1

Na 11 45 65 69

K 4 16 6 3

Ca 2134 2569 2490 2686

Mg 14 14 14 13

P 1065 1616 1732 1783

Zn 1172 1608 1707 1792

Mo 517 994 1007 1094



cSt@100C 7.7 13.6 18.2 14.5

fuel Absent Absent Absent Absent

water
Glycol N N N N

Soot 0.2
Oxidation 10.9 85.0 91.0 82.0

Nitration 5.2 10.0 15.6 6.0

TBN 6.0 6.8 2.9

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I’m going to pull the plug on this 10w40 experiment. I refilled with 10w40 but I’ll dump it and refill with 10w30 at the end of the summer (about 5k miles).

I'm surprised the viscosity went up so high and the lead was as high as it was.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Dude! I bet you have coolant ingression. Send it to Terry, he can tell you for sure. And tell you what to do.
Sodium is elevated. Vis increasing A LOT! and Lots o TIN, elevated Pb.
Fix that motor before you smoke your bearings, if you haven't already? Good thing you had RL in there!

And get that analysis to Terry before it's too late. He already saved both of my engines

Another reason to send it to Terry is to see how serious if at all damage is. If it were me, I would consider demanding a new car...at least a new engine. It looks like it may have been leaking from day one???

[ June 10, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Hmm just saw the VOA. That IS NOT RL signature...mainly Sn and Na. So how can you trust anything else...
That lab is on crack. Send it to a real lab.

 

[HOndaGuy]

quote:

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Originally posted by satterfi:
Lab comments: (Predictive Maintenance Service for all tests)


Dirt (silicon) continues to decrease, however there is a slight increase in copper (first limit = 20ppm). Oil viscosity is high with the maximum limit for SAE 40wt oil as 16.3 Cst. In addition, the TBN value is low compared to previous tests. All other things being equal, I would say that you have reached the maximum mileage on your oil, and may want to consider cutting back the interval between oil changes.

code:

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2003 Honda Civic 6/29/2003 9/14/2003 5/31/2004

Total Miles 1643 4634 15709

Miles on Oil 1643 2991 11075 New



Oil factory fill Redline 10w40 Redline 10w40 Redline 10w40





Iron 18 12 19 1

Cr 0 0 0 0

Pb 12 6 31 0

Cu 10 15 25 0

Sn 13 18 19 17

Al 18 12 19 2

Ni 0 0 0 0

Ag 0 0 0 0

Si 81 32 21 16

B 38 6 2 1

Na 11 45 65 69

K 4 16 6 3

Ca 2134 2569 2490 2686

Mg 14 14 14 13

P 1065 1616 1732 1783

Zn 1172 1608 1707 1792

Mo 517 994 1007 1094



cSt@100C 7.7 13.6 18.2 14.5

fuel Absent Absent Absent Absent

water
Glycol N N N N

Soot 0.2
Oxidation 10.9 85.0 91.0 82.0

Nitration 5.2 10.0 15.6 6.0

TBN 6.0 6.8 2.9

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I’m going to pull the plug on this 10w40 experiment. I refilled with 10w40 but I’ll dump it and refill with 10w30 at the end of the summer (about 5k miles).

I'm surprised the viscosity went up so high and the lead was as high as it was.

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Any reason your not running the m1 0w20 or redline 5w20? Our engines call for 5w20(unless you have the k20, which you could use a 5w30 anyway), and they show better wear #'s since they are designed for it. I wouldn't bother using something so thick unless your doing hardcore racing or something. Even then, the thickest I would go in this engine is a 30 wt.

 

[Pablo]

I'm not sure I trust that lab either...but...for free have them confirm. Or give your money back.

Man that stuff got thick!!!

Here's my Lab Study

Chucklehead chucklehead (me)...bad results with Redline....must be the lab.....

[ June 10, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[Boeing 757 Pilot]

I wonder just how accurate are all the Labs when it comes to oil analysis?? How ofen is their equipment calibrated? Is there any 'human error' involved by the lab or the lab tech?

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I have yet to see any suspicious spectography from Blackstone...

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I would have thought you were joking Pab until the

. If you really think this is a 'bad result with Red Line' you really don't have a clue.

 

[Pablo]

I do have a clue Jason, I was joking...but I can't say with certainty he has a coolant leak, nor can I say FOR sure the lab is bad....

EDIT: What does

mean anyway? I think it to mean "I doubt the above" or a mild way of saying "BS"....so what I was joking about IF these numbers turn out to be real (they could be, Jason) then I say it's not such a good result for a "boutique" oil at $7qt, that's all....anything wrong with me saying that?

EDIT II: Redline has some Na, but not THAT much, and the Sn? From raw material contamination in the bottle????

[ June 10, 2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Too me,

, conveys a sense of sarcasm or disbelief to what is being said...

Could be real...We could also all die tomorrow when the Earth gets hit by a comet... I'm putting my bets on the comet first...

Well at least we know one thing...there is a 'bad result' coming from something...

 

[buster]

I won't hide my sarcasm.

Jason you may be right, but I still think it's amazing that every **** poor RL UOA either has had a dose of BG, is cleaning something up or has a coolant leak.

[ June 10, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Pablo]

per buster:

quote:

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but I still think it's amazing that every **** poor RL UOA either has had a dose of BG, is cleaning something up or has a coolant leak.

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You gotta be thinking what are the odds here???? Again, I have no idea what went on here...I'm not on the ground, but......

 

[TooSlick]

I think you're both missing the point in this data set ....

The equipment at PMS labs clearly has to be re-calibrated. However, the baseline analysis and the two subsequent UOA's show very consistent - if inaccurate - levels of additives and contaminents, including Na and K. The TBN of 2.9 is also completely normal for an interval of 11k miles and should not be the cause of corrosive wear. So it's not at all clear to me that there is any internal coolant contamination here.

The analysis of the factory fill, and the RL analysis done on 9/14/03, @ 4600 miles show completely normal bearing wear, viscosity, TBN, etc, for a new engine. Did this engine suddenly develop a coolant leak after almost 5000 miles of normal operation? Extremely unlikely, unless it was severely overheated and the head was warped.

It's more probable the cause of this abnormal bearing wear is simply the high viscosity of this oil, due to overextending the drain interval. What makes this so odd is the the oxidation/nitration are very low when you subtract the baseline values. In this case, the normal Redline signature may be masking any oxidation that occurs.

I'd recommend running a MUCH thinner oil, like the M1, 5w-30 or the RL 5w-20 and test it again after 5000 miles. I'd also switch to Blackstone labs, so if you see high sodium and/or potassium, there is no question it's contamination. The RL formulations do contain both of these as trace elements, but more in the 10-15 ppm level.

As a final point, this engine is designed to run 5w-20 and 5w-30 lubes with a high temp, high shear viscosity in the 2.6-3.2 Cp range. The RL, 10w-40 has a HT/HS of 4.7 Cp - which is almost an SAE 20w-50 - even without any oxidative thickening. So this oil is really too thick for this application.
I believe Terry would agree that with RL you can safely go DOWN one SAE grade from what's recommended in a conventional lube. But there's certainly no reason to go the other way in a new engine ....

TS

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
... The TBN of 2.9 is also completely normal for an interval of 11k miles and should not be the cause of corrosive wear. So it's not at all clear to me that there is any internal coolant contamination here...

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I had a TBN after a 10k interval that would have been around that (.9 Blackstone method), and I DID have some coolant ingression... (and I would not have found it without Terry...he was dead on too. I'll probably post a summary somewhere else. Also when I get my next UOA, I will post the improvements)

Also, you said "should not be cause of corrosive wear". Just because tbn is ok, does not mean there can't be other reason for elevated wear metals. (i.e. coolant doesn't have to completely deplete TBN before it increases wear)

[ June 10, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]

 

[satterfi]

Before we condemn PMS, we should let George Morrison comment on this sample and lab variation.

I doubt there is a coolant leakage problem. I was worried about this on the last sample until I sent a Virgin Oil sample to PMS.

I pushed the oil change interval. That was my intention. I hoped RL 10w40 would do better.

I'll dump the RL 10w40 here in short order and refill with RL 10w30. I'll probably do 2 intervals with that and then move on to RL 5w-20.

It takes time for slow learners to get over "Thicker is Better". I'm getting there.

 

[Jay]

My experience with PMS was that the wear metals were very accurate and consistent and the oil additive elements were high (very high) compared to other labs. However, no other lab found tin in virgin Redline so ask for a retest or send a sample to another lab before making a judgement. Your engine is still breaking in which complicates the analysis.

 

[heyheylbj]

Satterfi:

Unless you did the K20A2 swap (For the non-civic minded, it's a ricer trick where you swap the engine and tranny from the stock civic D17A2 for the engine and tranny from an acura RSX...

The oil is too think for the application, bro. The reason you are getting amazingly weird numbers is because you are doing a disservice to your engine with oil that is waaay too thick. For a small displacement engine like the 1.7L EX vtec engine, the extra thickness is straining your oil pump and the passages. ESPECIALLY since you have an EX witht he VTEC holes in it (oil passages for VTEC operation, everytime that thick stuff is forced into your holes, you'll get less oil flow, more problems with wear.

The passages inside a civic engine and the clearances are not as large basically because the engine is smaller. It's like trying to suck a chocolate shake into a thin straw :doesn't work well.

Switch to the 5w20 redline. I have it on 6-8K intervals in my 03 LX and it works like a dream. If you absolutely positively must continue your quest for high viscosity #'s, use the 5w-30 redline.

 

[uconn1150]

IF you still had some left, I'd get it retested. Your engine is still breaking in. I don't know if I would have gone that long.

Then, there's the ones who say 40w is simply too thick.

There must be more than to it than that. See here

Yes, I'm half the mileage, but you gotta love the Pb!

 

[dropitby]

Yes another case of the engine breaking in you prolonged it somwhat by using the RL none the less given a 11000 mile stay it would have used any oil to show a not so stellar report till breakin is complete. Run this oil or any oil and your UOA will be much better for the next 11000 miles.

 

[satterfi]

heyheylbj

This Civic engine isn’t built much different than Honda motorcycles, including the VTEC mechanism found on Honda 400cc bikes. Clearances and tolerances are all about the same.

The only significant difference that I see is the oil pump design. Both are internal lobe designs, but the Civic has 11(?)lobes vs my bike’s 4.

Anyway, I’ve got RL 10w30 in there now and will probably change it at 6k miles and retest. I’ll try 5w20 sometime and then give the 10w40 another shot.

BTW, the search feature doesn’t find your UOAs.