Redline 0w20, 14303 Mi., '06 Civic LX 1.8l

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: gib
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Dirt ingress tripled over the same time frame, AND it was changed back to a paper?

... There's a lot of silicon in this sample and that's probably why the iron wear increased. He did change to a paper filter, but after ~9k miles on the K&N I suspect the "damage" was done. ...
Changing a filter is prime time for dirt ingestion. No matter how carefull and fastideous you are a fair amout of dirt will be loosened up from around filter gasket and intake tubing and set up to migrate back into the intake. You cant avoid it.


I've never seen more then a few ppm increase in silicon between air filter changes. I'm very anal about it and will vacuum clean the air box before installing a few filter.

Aftermarket intake systems are even easier... Remove the cone air filter, wash and reinstall. (Or put a new one on)

Not much chance in dirt getting in the tube.

 

[panthermike]

Being that the TBN was only 1.2 on the last run, I'm surprised that your buddy extended this run. Definately too far. I would run the oil 7,500 or so, then resample to see if Silicone is coming down.

 

[Artem]

I wouldn't go that low from the previous 14k OCI. I'd do 10-12k as Blackstone suggested. The oil should be right in the 1-2.0 TBN range at that mileage.

I'm surprised Redline Oil didn't hold up to this interval.

 

[buster]

Redlin'e starting Tbn is only 8 and it's really not as good of an extended drain oil as they make it out to be IMO.

However, Redline is a great racing synthetic oil for moderate drain intervals. It's best quality is it's shear stability and high temperature resistance.

 

[Artem]

What about the 15,000 mile Redline oil UOA posted from a Ford Focus recently? It still had a pinch of TBN left.

 

[SubLGT]

With that amount of silicon ingress I am quite surprised at how low aluminum and chromium are in this UOA. Then again, if these pistons are aluminum/silicon alloy, some of that 84 ppm of Si may be coming from the pistons.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Wow, never heard of that before. Piston wear in a Civic(?) could be showing up as Si? Is that possible? I don't understand. Thanks.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: Artem
What about the 15,000 mile Redline oil UOA posted from a Ford Focus recently? It still had a pinch of TBN left.


The engine type definitely matters. I've seen some good long drain RL UOA's but not many.

 

[Turk]

"Check back at 12,000 miles for another look."

Really? How long was it spent for??

I'd go 10k max, IMO...

 

[ltslimjim]

^I agree, at least recheck by 10,000 before going any longer than that after an extreme run was just finished.

 

[gib]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Definitely check your intake from all angles(including vacuum hoses). Otherwise, any work done on the car that would have had gasket replaced or sealants used recently?

I wonder, how is the PCV valve looking/functioning(ever been replaced???), have you taken pictures of the valve train? Do so during a valve cover removal, please.

The PCV has never been replaced. There has been no work done or sealants used that would contribute to the silicon. It's definitely just dirt.

If the valve cover ever comes off, I'll suggest he take some pictures.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Thank you, this is a good thread for discussion either way, on the subject of extended drains. I'd personally try a basically 5w-20 synthetic(or 0w-20) and see what another test at 7,500 would do.

Get the PCV valve pulled and if it's cruddy/not excessively noisy/loosely moving by just tilting it gently in your handy, I'd replace it.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: SubLGT
With that amount of silicon ingress I am quite surprised at how low aluminum and chromium are in this UOA. Then again, if these pistons are aluminum/silicon alloy, some of that 84 ppm of Si may be coming from the pistons.

Exactly

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
^I agree, at least recheck by 10,000 before going any longer than that after an extreme run was just finished.


Technically, the engine would benefit from a short interval to clean stuff up that was left behind by this previous run since it was out of TBN for who knows how long.

 

[OVERKILL]

As others have said, run WAY too long. I'd do a "clean-up" run of maybe 7K, do a check then and see where the TBN is, and work UP from there.

The methodology seems backwards here:

You are supposed to use a UOA as a tool to progressively increase your OCI based on what you see in the reports. And the trending that goes along with it.

Not start with an OCI that is obviously far too long and work your way back down. Since at this point, there is now damage done to the engine.

 

[gib]

The point about the methodology being backwards is fair, but understand my friend doesn't read or post on this site, so he doesn't have the same mindset as most people on here. He is doing these UOAs out of curiosity because I suggested it and told him that folks on this site would find them interesting with how hard he runs the car and how long an OCI he runs. He'll make some small changes based on the results, but his primary motivation is to offer some of the more interesting UOAs posted on this site. That's pretty cool of him.

Regarding the results, my overall opinion is that he certainly ran it too long, but that the results aren't quite as bad as most people are making them out to be. The TBN is eye catching, for sure. However, outside of iron, all other wear metals looked great. Considering he ran 2 or 3 times the universal averages, how hard he flogs the engine, and all the silicon present, is 54ppm of iron a disaster worthy of being called damage? I don't really think so. To put it another way, is anyone here willing to raise their hand and bet this engine won't make it to 150k miles?

 

[gib]

I touched on it in an earlier post, but just wanted to reiterate that my friend is running Redline 0w20 again and intends to change it at 11k miles. He's already at about 7k, so 11k isn't too far off. The full run with a paper air filter will be telling.

I also plan on suggesting he try Amsoil Signature 0w20 for his next change. The beefier TBN and concomitant acid-neutralizing and antioxidant power would be good if he wants to try staying in the ~14k OCI range. It's even rated for 15k miles under severe service. Since my friend does about 14k a year, that might be perfect.

I'm glad this UOA has generated some interest and so is he. He wanted me to say "you're welcome" on his behalf. haha

 

[OVERKILL]

I would suggest he pull a sample and send it off now to be analysed. That'll give him an idea as to how much longer he'll be able to safely run it.

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
^Wow, never heard of that before. Piston wear in a Civic(?) could be showing up as Si? Is that possible? I don't understand. Thanks.

Yes, hypereutectic pistons are used in just about every modern engine. They have more silicon present than standard alloys; this reduces thermal expansion so the pistons can be made to a tighter fit.
It also makes them harder, so this type of piston is avoided in performance applications.
Theoretically, I guess I could see it. However, even this higher silicon content is less than 20% of the total composition. Even if we go for the high end, MAYBE 1ppm is from this.
I have another thing that has been bothering me, and some one else brought it up. They didnt think it was enough piston/ring wear for all that to be dirt. Well, I have a suspicion this dirt is coming in on the crankcase ventilation side of things. Going straight into the crankcase and bypassing the valves, pistons, and rings. Chromium, which would be the rings, is normal.
I think the bulk of the aluminum is coming from the bearings (yes, bearings) and the iron is from the cam, and related accessorys. I don't know what type of valvetrain design this uses, but, that is my idea regardless.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
I would suggest he pull a sample and send it off now to be analysed. That'll give him an idea as to how much longer he'll be able to safely run it.


I agree.

Also, it should be re-stated that a basic UOA like this is only a guide, and doesn't show actual overall wear.