This thread is hilarious.
Red Line 5W30 10k Miles - 2004 Volvo S60
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.
In more cases than not, I think you're right. I agree.
I've never seen Redline hold its TBN, it is NOT an extended drain oil. It has exceptional high temp performance and a relatively high HTHS per grade. It is an excellent lubricant. But it is NOT designed for extended drain intervals and your UOA confirms that.
In more cases than not, I think you're right. I agree.
I did 20k OCI in my Golf diesel with Redline 5w20 and TBN was still 3.3 at the end. Check the UOA section for details.
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Originally Posted By: martinq
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Glad someone else remembers this advice. Too many people discount it after 1 use.
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Glad someone else remembers this advice. Too many people discount it after 1 use.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: martinq
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Maybe, but I'm not convinced.
For extreme high temps and for flat tappet cam engines, it's an excellent choice.
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Maybe, but I'm not convinced.
For extreme high temps and for flat tappet cam engines, it's an excellent choice.
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and have no issues.Not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine whats best for their application either.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and have no issues.Not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine whats best for their application either.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: DragRace
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and no issues.Your right,not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine how long they are goin to run an oil either.
You don't need the Internet, you just need a series of UOA's to track how well it is holding up
Plenty of people just blindly run whatever OCI they see fit and have "no issues" as you put it. The point I was trying to make with regards to TBN isn't that you would see any "issues" anyway. What it allows for is deposit and in extreme cases, sludge formation. Depending on the engine and how long the lubricant is operated in its depleted state, this can take an incredibly long time to happen. It isn't something somebody would notice in a few intervals or even a few years I'm betting, and to observe it they'd have to routinely disassemble their engine to see if deposits are forming in low-flow areas.
A prime example of this is Artem's Toyota. The lubricant was run past its limits for the application (a Toyota sludger) yet the engine runs like a top. It has "no issues", despite having a rather alarming amount of varnish and build-up in it. This is the risk, and it doesn't matter how good the oil is, there will be a point where its ability to neutralize acids and keep particulate in suspension is overwhelmed. When experimenting with drain intervals longer than the norm (like this 10K mile example) this is where a UOA (or even better, a series of UOA's) is useful.
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and no issues.Your right,not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine how long they are goin to run an oil either.
You don't need the Internet, you just need a series of UOA's to track how well it is holding up
Plenty of people just blindly run whatever OCI they see fit and have "no issues" as you put it. The point I was trying to make with regards to TBN isn't that you would see any "issues" anyway. What it allows for is deposit and in extreme cases, sludge formation. Depending on the engine and how long the lubricant is operated in its depleted state, this can take an incredibly long time to happen. It isn't something somebody would notice in a few intervals or even a few years I'm betting, and to observe it they'd have to routinely disassemble their engine to see if deposits are forming in low-flow areas.
A prime example of this is Artem's Toyota. The lubricant was run past its limits for the application (a Toyota sludger) yet the engine runs like a top. It has "no issues", despite having a rather alarming amount of varnish and build-up in it. This is the risk, and it doesn't matter how good the oil is, there will be a point where its ability to neutralize acids and keep particulate in suspension is overwhelmed. When experimenting with drain intervals longer than the norm (like this 10K mile example) this is where a UOA (or even better, a series of UOA's) is useful.
Originally Posted By: martinq
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? I find it very interesting. Could it be left over oil from previous fills throwing off the chemistry?
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
+1 for Red Line 0w30, the 5w30 is pretty heavy.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? I find it very interesting. Could it be left over oil from previous fills throwing off the chemistry?
Different oil analysis labs have different criteria for managing TBN. Blackstone recommends oil changes when TBN reaches 1.0. Polaris recommends oil changes when TBN reaches 35% of the virgin value. As I understand it, this is due to different procedures that are used to measure TBN at the different labs.
A VOA that I had done on Redline 5w30 at Polaris last May shows virgin TBN of 8.55, which means that it should be changed at 3.0. The previous fill of Redline that I had run in my Camaro for 7400 miles was down to 2.35, so was well past where it should have been changed. With a starting TBN of 8.55, I wouldn't expect Redline to be an extended drain oil, and I don't fault it when the UOA bears that out. I buy Redline for high temperature protection during track use.
A VOA that I had done on Redline 5w30 at Polaris last May shows virgin TBN of 8.55, which means that it should be changed at 3.0. The previous fill of Redline that I had run in my Camaro for 7400 miles was down to 2.35, so was well past where it should have been changed. With a starting TBN of 8.55, I wouldn't expect Redline to be an extended drain oil, and I don't fault it when the UOA bears that out. I buy Redline for high temperature protection during track use.
Originally Posted By: electrolover
Originally Posted By: martinq
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? I find it very interesting. Could it be left over oil from previous fills throwing off the chemistry?
It could be as you suggest, or it might be related the the cleaning ability of the ester-base used in this oil. All I would recommend is to repeat the procedure and look at the data. One, basic UOA is not much to look at, it needs to be compared with the previous data.
Originally Posted By: martinq
I would disregard the TBN for the first three fills of Red Line as you should see it increase with each fill. The first fill always seems to have a very low TBN and it's been discussed that it's due to the ester base used in these oils.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? I find it very interesting. Could it be left over oil from previous fills throwing off the chemistry?
It could be as you suggest, or it might be related the the cleaning ability of the ester-base used in this oil. All I would recommend is to repeat the procedure and look at the data. One, basic UOA is not much to look at, it needs to be compared with the previous data.
Nobody seems to notice the extra 2306 miles on the Redline vs. the Mobil 1. Could account for the difference in TBN as that's approx 30% more miles. So until he does 10k with the Mobil 1, We can't say it held up better as I think it's TBN starts out in the 8 range also. Might just be a wash.
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and have no issues.Not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine whats best for their application either.
They may not be experiencing any issues but that doesn't mean there isn't something going on.
I love red lines products and the company. I would use their products exclusively if I could afford to,but I can't.
The "data" acquired here shows that in this particular application the oil isn't suitable for extended drains(10000 or more miles) however I would run it up to that point. Or why pay the extra money. If a cheaper oil can go the same mileage,and wear numbers are similar then what's the point?
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: DragRace
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
This thread is hilarious.
It is,I always get a kick outta the "Redline isnt for long drain applications" Yet I know a few people who have and have had no issues.But hey,not everyone Reads BobistheOilguy online forums.
Just because an oil suffers from TBN depletion doesn't mean it is going to cause people to "have issues". It means it is no longer able to neutralize the acids formed from the combustion process and this can lead to deposit formation and sludge build-up if left unchecked.
Most people don't do UOA's. They have no idea how much or how little oil life they have left. They have no idea what their contamination levels are. They are living in blissful oblivion and having "no issues"
I always get a "kick" out of the people who come in laughing about other people's experience with a product, people who have done oil analysis and discovered that in their application and those of many others that the product simply isn't viable for extended drains. They typically speak in a mocking or condescending tone, going on like there is some awesome inside joke going on, discounting the other's experience based on blissful ignorance with a couple of anecdotes about Uncle Billy Bob and his buddy Fred having "no issues", which apparently carries far more weight in their minds than actual data.
Hilarious indeed.
Edit:
And I will add that if I sound a bit snarky, it is because I find it incredibly rude that just because you have an opinion on something that is contrary to that of a few others participating in a thread who were speaking SPECIFICALLY as to their experience and observations about a product, you found it necessary to mock those people instead of engaging in a debate about the data, evidence...etc.
I'm all for discussing Redline's viability as an extended drain lubricant. It just seems that in this case, and in the cases of many other examples, that it simply cannot hold it's TBN as long as other oils which are actively advertised as being capable of this feat.
You can get as "snarky" as you wish.I'm passing along that I know several people who use Redline street oil for up to 10,000 miles and have no issues.Not everyone does UOA's.Not everyone uses the internet to determine whats best for their application either.
They may not be experiencing any issues but that doesn't mean there isn't something going on.
I love red lines products and the company. I would use their products exclusively if I could afford to,but I can't.
The "data" acquired here shows that in this particular application the oil isn't suitable for extended drains(10000 or more miles) however I would run it up to that point. Or why pay the extra money. If a cheaper oil can go the same mileage,and wear numbers are similar then what's the point?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Clevy
They may not be experiencing any issues but that doesn't mean there isn't something going on.
I love red lines products and the company. I would use their products exclusively if I could afford to,but I can't.
The "data" acquired here shows that in this particular application the oil isn't suitable for extended drains(10000 or more miles) however I would run it up to that point. Or why pay the extra money. If a cheaper oil can go the same mileage,and wear numbers are similar then what's the point?
Exactly.
A quick look at my recent M1 0w-40 UOA shows an oil CLEARLY capable of incredible long-drain performance. I had a TBN of 7 still at the end of my run. That's almost as high as the Redline starting TBN
However, an oil doesn't need to be extended-drain capable to be exceptional. These CAN be mutually exclusive traits. Redline oils are excellent products, just because they don't hold up quite as long as some of their peers doesn't make them a lesser product unless your sole criteria is drain interval length.
They may not be experiencing any issues but that doesn't mean there isn't something going on.
I love red lines products and the company. I would use their products exclusively if I could afford to,but I can't.
The "data" acquired here shows that in this particular application the oil isn't suitable for extended drains(10000 or more miles) however I would run it up to that point. Or why pay the extra money. If a cheaper oil can go the same mileage,and wear numbers are similar then what's the point?
Exactly.
A quick look at my recent M1 0w-40 UOA shows an oil CLEARLY capable of incredible long-drain performance. I had a TBN of 7 still at the end of my run. That's almost as high as the Redline starting TBN
However, an oil doesn't need to be extended-drain capable to be exceptional. These CAN be mutually exclusive traits. Redline oils are excellent products, just because they don't hold up quite as long as some of their peers doesn't make them a lesser product unless your sole criteria is drain interval length.
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