Recommended regimen for a neglected engine

[Spyder7]

Regarding the efficacy of MMO:

I've read a white paper done by a university I can't think of (its been awhile since I read it) in partnership with a bunch of companies that sponsored it. It was titled something like "Are oil additives snake oil?"

Their conclusion was that they were, but they broke them down into 4 classes of snake oil (based on active ingredients). MMO fell into the last class, and the issue they took with it was that (relative to standard motor oil) its a potent solvent, and the concern was it could be used either when:

- it wasn't needed;
- in too high a concentration;
- and/or for too long a period.

With the end result being cleanliness that compromised the thin layer of beneficial [censored] coating stuff where you really don't want any metal-on-metal contact. Unlike many of the other products they studied, it was not faulted for not working or being inherently harmful. Only faulted because if it was misused or over-used, it could do some damage.

I use it, but at the lowest concentration specified by the manufacturer of it (10%). That's enough for my purposes, and at that concentration I'm not worried about too much solvency. It therefore satisfies my own useful and safe acid test that anything I put in has to pass first (though I use some stuff that is not proven to be beneficial, but enough anecdotal evidence suggests it may while the cost is negligible and the risk of damage zero; this is a separate camp of products than MMO, such as the tc-w3 in my sig).

-Spyder

 

[Familyguy]

If the OP is interested in the usual additive bickering, he can head over to the additives forum for the full maintenance dose.

We were specifically asked to opine on what to do with an ABUSED engine. Given the specifics of the original post, I think a SOLVENT is what's probably required to deal with the likely buildup of resulting crud. I have had success with MMO in this type of circumstance in the past. See my posting history for my recent account of a very neglected Escort engine with bad lifter rap and oil that looked like melted chocolate syrup being effectively treated.

That said, in a properly maintained engine, I would agree that additives are not necessary when a quality oil/filter are used and changed at a reasonable interval. I dare say that the majority of the aftermarket additives/elixirs/snake-oil are likely a complete waste of time/money, regardless of the circumstances surrounding their use.

The best medicine is prevention, but when somebody dumps a patient with the plague on your doorstep, you do what you can.

Best,

 

[Cutehumor]

run pennzoil ultra and see how dark the oil gets the first few hundred miles. I wouldn't use additives at this point.

 

[Spyder7]

This is exactly the situation I'm in. Sludge in my engine is not speculation or a possibility; its a fact (with pics posted to prove it) of life that I'm dealing with now. Like the OP I want to clean it safely and gently, but I also want to do it reasonably efficiently. To that end my approach:

- PP because it has one of the best detergent/dispersant packages on the market;

- 10% MMO because I believe that concentration to be enough and, with the PP, act as a catalyst to safely expedite the cleaning process;

- One of the highest efficiency filters on the market so it catches the junk the above loosens as quickly as possible rather than having it circulating through the engine (as it builds up while more junk is being loosened) any longer than it absolutely has to.

Coming from a "systems" background in my (non-mechanical) profession, I still look at this kind of thing from the same lens: whatever solution used is only going to be as good as the weakest link. And if oil, additives, and a filter are used then all three need to be given some thought. You can toss PU into a filthy engine, and then combine it with the cheapest OCOD you can get your hands on, but the end result won't be as good as if a more balanced approach is taken, which takes the total package into account.

Edit: in reading your own recommendation, its really not that different from my own approach. Slightly different ingredients, essentially the same recipe. Therefore I think we can easily agree to disagree on the specifics since they are minor details within a very similar framework.

-Spyder

 

[Gary Allan]

If nothing has occurred in 30K+ of neglect, I don't think it's going to matter. You can just maintain it sensibly from here on out and it should not decay any further. You'll probably uptake something with each OCI, but you can be fairly confident that you won't be adding anything that isn't already there. I didn't see any report of consumption.

The use additives are mostly discouraged by the OEM. They have their own line of mechanics in a can. They just don't recommend consumers applying the agents arbitrarily. Some actually do clean (like fuel system cleaners) while some cope with symptoms.

 

[3311]

Use an HDEO and forget about the additives. IMO

 

[colsen]

newbie question What is MMO?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: colsen
newbie question What is MMO?


MMO= Marvel Mystery Oil

Welcome to BITOG.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: colsen
newbie question What is MMO?

MMO

 

[mechtech2]

fokvoort -
All car makers and oils companies say not to use any additives.
But they all use additives.
And their advice caused your engine to sludge up.

MMO is safe and a good choice for a problem like yours, and is cheap.
There is tons of evidence of how to use MMO with great results.
Esp after 80+ years.

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
fokvoort -
All car makers and oils companies say not to use any additives.
But they all use additives.
And their advice caused your engine to sludge up.

MMO is safe and a good choice for a problem like yours, and is cheap.
There is tons of evidence of how to use MMO with great results.
Esp after 80+ years.
I appreciate your confidence in MMO, and I agree, the time it has been on the market and the many serious-minded users who support it counts for something.

For clarification's sake, the advice of the car makers and oil companies is/was perfectly sound for the vehicle in question -- it was neglected by the owner for 30K miles. I have no confirmation that the engine is sludged, just concern based on the neglect.

I think Gary's point is well taken: that oil companies and car manufacturers aren't opposed to additives (obviously), just car owners' potentially arbitrary use of them with already well researched and tested packages.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
fokvoort -
All car makers and oils companies say not to use any additives.
But they all use additives.
And their advice caused your engine to sludge up.
....


I would have blamed it on the 30k miles with no oil change, but that's just how I think.

 

[lewdwig]

Mobil 1 0w-40 and a good filter for a couple of OCIs.

 

[colsen]

thanks I figured it out after reading another post.

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Yeah Kreen and Seafoam are great products, (especially Kreen IMO), If you are really sludged in there, these products will work...sometimes too well, you might get dislodged chunks that clog. As Most people said an oil w/ high boron such as Pennzoil Ultra and a Wix filter, and do 2.5k-3k oil changes for a while. If that is too expensive for you Pennzoil Conventional w/ Supertech filter at Walmart....USE SOME MMO! and chage out every 1to 2k 3 or 4 times/

OTOH: if you want to get it clean quicker, and you are rich, Use some Red Line oil. Ester based oils clean well due to their polarity and chemical makeup.
You spoke to one of my fears about using a solvent-based cleaner: dislodging deposits large enough to cause a problem. Also, I would think these solvents shouldn't be left in the engine long. Trouble is, oil changes don't get all the oil out, so there's always some solvent left, too; I would guess this could be a problem.

What is it about the polarity and chemical makeup of ester-based oils that make them could cleaners? I have no problem running Redline -- use it in the trans and diff in my car.

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Spend some time in the oil additive section, lots of people are using MMO with good results. Some people love it, some hate it, most of those who hate it haven't tried it.

Having said that I would run one or two 3000 mile OCI's with your favorite conventional oil, and a Purolator Classic filter or something along that order. I've been using MMO since the 70's and have many success stories from using it. Several of them are scattered about this site. Lots of people who were hesitant have recently tried it and are reporting back favorably.

At less than $4 a qt at Wal-Mart it is worth a try.
I certaintly don't hate MMO, I'm just not well-informed about it -- what it's made of, best way to use it, risks, etc.

It doesn't help that MMO's website isn't very informative; both it and several posts I have read seem only to say: use it, it's good.

If it goes in my engine, I like to understand it better.

 

[Spyder7]

There are only two issues with a using a solvent based cleaner such as MMO in the crankcase:

1) You have no control over where it goes, it it can't discriminate between the useful and the stuff you want it to clean;

2) It thins your oil out. Oil that is too thin will lead to metal-on-metal contact, a very bad thing.

The risks of both can be minimized, imho, to the point of safety if you stick to the minimum concentration specified by Marvel (10%). As to the latter, you can further alleviate that one by running it in the winter.

Or you could take the risk factor out entirely (even if negligible) by using a high detergency syn like PU, or an HDEO like Rotella.

There is always a certain risk when running a solvent in the crankcase, but it can be minimized. Marvel states their product is perfectly safe to use, and will cause no harm if used as directed in fuel. They don't make the same claim for it being used in the crankcase, despite the many who have been misinformed that they do.

I use it, but I have definite need for it, or something similar, and am still very cautious in my application of it. Some may say too cautious, but they are free to use it however they see they fit and I won't second guess or criticize another MMO user who chooses instead to use the maximum end (25%) of they range they specify.

As long as one comes up with an informed solution that works for them, then that's all that matters. Plenty of roads out there leading to the same destination.

-Spyder

 

[Kyk noord en]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
If nothing has occurred in 30K+ of neglect, I don't think it's going to matter. You can just maintain it sensibly from here on out and it should not decay any further. You'll probably uptake something with each OCI, but you can be fairly confident that you won't be adding anything that isn't already there. I didn't see any report of consumption.

The use additives are mostly discouraged by the OEM. They have their own line of mechanics in a can. They just don't recommend consumers applying the agents arbitrarily. Some actually do clean (like fuel system cleaners) while some cope with symptoms.


Uptake something?

And since you mentioned fuel system cleaners, do you like BG? Another product?

 

[Spyder7]

He's probably referring to wear metals or carbon deposits. Your oil will pick this stuff up as it circulates, and were you to get a used oil analysis done, it would show up there. But all it would be showing is what was already there, and not anything that was turned up because of your usage. It can take several OCIs to clean an engine out, as each new one loosens more gunk and puts it into suspension.

-Spyder

 

[Kyk noord en]

Appreciate everyone's replies.

My plan, based on BITOG research and a touch of my own oddball sensibilities, is this:

Pennzoil Conventional 5w30, 3K miles;
Pennzoil High Mileage 5w30, 3K miles;
Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, 3K miles.

(Been a Mobil 1 user for some time; I freely admit the Pennzoil love around here was infectious)

At that point, the Highlander will be getting opened up for a timing belt and waterpump replacement, whereupon I'll ask to look inside to assess sludging issues or lack thereof.