Reasons NOT to go with an Over-sized filter?

[SteveSRT8]

Thanks to Dave for an excellent explanation.

A larger filter is a "feel good" mod, it will do little good and likely little harm also. Having run stock 6.0 liter V8's to half a million miles on the standard filter means no real world gains at all.

If under warranty coverage this mod makes no sense...

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what if you go from a 20 psid bypass to a 8 psid bypass?


It's possible the oil filter would go into bypass much more and much earlier as it loaded up with crud and the delta-p started to increase. IMO, the bypass valve setting is dependent on both the engine's oiling system specs and also the flow characteristics of the filter itself.

It's just not all engine specs that determine the bypass valve setting, and that's why different brand filters for the same exact engine might have different bypass settings, but not a huge difference like 20 vs 8 psi.


I would assume that any filter will go into bypass at some time regardless of the pressure rating. Otherwise why not go with a 30 psi filter? Also I would think the higher the rated bypass pressure the more loose gunk that collects not trapped by the filter media.


You can't go too high on a bypass valve because part of the purpose of the bypass valve is to also protect the media from damage from too much delta-p across the filter. If filters are changed before they get too loaded up, I don't think the bypass valve opens much at all - especially after the oil gets fully hot (good reason to keep your foot out of the throttle until the engine gets warmed up well). It would be hard to get a filter to go into bypass even when running near red line on an engine that puts out pretty good oil flow.

Checkout this Thread (Link)

I don't see how a high setting on a bypass valve would cause less gunk to be trapped by the media and collect someplace else. Any time the bypass valve is closed, the oil has to go through the media and therefore crud will be caught in the media. Crud gets trapped down in between the pleats, and once trapped it pretty much stay there.


Thanks for the link to the discussion. My OEM filter is a 20 ;b bypass, the replacement is 8-10 Wix. Don't know for sure how much difference there is in the media sq inches yet.

My peak oil pressure though with the Wix seems to be a bit higher. 90 lbs is the most I have seen on hot oil near redline with 0w40 oil. Before with a 30 lbs Baldwin I saw around 80 lbs.

 

[rrounds]

Where did the extra 10 psi of oil pressure go? With a P/D pump it had to go somewhere. Unless you have a leak somewhere between the oil pump and the oil pressure gauge.

As for the difference there is in the media sq inches between the two filters, on the S2000 the Wix/Napa oil filter has less filter media than the stock Honda filter for the S2000. I would cut one open to see it its the same, smaller or larger than the stock filter.

ROD

 

[SHOZ]

I'm guessing the other filter was more restrictive.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Thanks to Dave for an excellent explanation.

A larger filter is a "feel good" mod, it will do little good and likely little harm also. Having run stock 6.0 liter V8's to half a million miles on the standard filter means no real world gains at all.

If under warranty coverage this mod makes no sense...

So your thoughts on why Toyota back speced a larger filter on the Ge 4 Camry 4 cyl?

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what if you go from a 20 psid bypass to a 8 psid bypass?


It's possible the oil filter would go into bypass much more and much earlier as it loaded up with crud and the delta-p started to increase. IMO, the bypass valve setting is dependent on both the engine's oiling system specs and also the flow characteristics of the filter itself.

It's just not all engine specs that determine the bypass valve setting, and that's why different brand filters for the same exact engine might have different bypass settings, but not a huge difference like 20 vs 8 psi.


I would assume that any filter will go into bypass at some time regardless of the pressure rating. Otherwise why not go with a 30 psi filter? Also I would think the higher the rated bypass pressure the more loose gunk that collects not trapped by the filter media.


You can't go too high on a bypass valve because part of the purpose of the bypass valve is to also protect the media from damage from too much delta-p across the filter. If filters are changed before they get too loaded up, I don't think the bypass valve opens much at all - especially after the oil gets fully hot (good reason to keep your foot out of the throttle until the engine gets warmed up well). It would be hard to get a filter to go into bypass even when running near red line on an engine that puts out pretty good oil flow.

Checkout this Thread (Link)

I don't see how a high setting on a bypass valve would cause less gunk to be trapped by the media and collect someplace else. Any time the bypass valve is closed, the oil has to go through the media and therefore crud will be caught in the media. Crud gets trapped down in between the pleats, and once trapped it pretty much stay there.
Having put a SW electric oil pressure on a B 21 Volvo (known for high oil pressure) I could watch the reading go upwards of 70 pounds on a cold mourning, WITH the correct oil. It bothered me to the point I checked it with a mechanical guage. The suggestion to take it easy when staring off from cold is a good one.

 

[SHOZ]

My Genesis Coupe 2L turbo idles at 60 lbs when it's cold. 70 is normal until the oil gets to temp when cruising down the road. Then it's 50-60 when cruising. I'm assuming the 80-90 lbs I see at redline are the pump bypass as no matter the temp that's as high as it goes. The ECU prevents more than 5 lbs of boost until the oil temp hits 150F.

On my Taurus SHOs both V6 and V8 I always ran the FL-1A vs the stock FL-400S. More oil and a bit more surface area for cooling. Plus less load on the filter media I figured.

Had Festiva that's speced for the same small Hyundai spin on filters. I use to use some obscure Ford Courier filter that was the same 20 lb bypass spec but twice the length. Motorcraft was the OEM but is obsolete. Use to get them at NAPA.

 

[zorobabel]

The main downside is that it might take a tiny bit longer for the oil to warm-up on startup due to the increased volume.
I often see [censored] at the bottom of the filter can instead of trapped in the pleats; a good reason to avoid by-passing oil. Thread end by-pass filters mounted thread side up are winners.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

You can't go too high on a bypass valve because part of the purpose of the bypass valve is to also protect the media from damage from too much delta-p across the filter. If filters are changed before they get too loaded up, I don't think the bypass valve opens much at all - especially after the oil gets fully hot (good reason to keep your foot out of the throttle until the engine gets warmed up well). It would be hard to get a filter to go into bypass even when running near red line on an engine that puts out pretty good oil flow.

Checkout this Thread (Link)

I don't see how a high setting on a bypass valve would cause less gunk to be trapped by the media and collect someplace else. Any time the bypass valve is closed, the oil has to go through the media and therefore crud will be caught in the media. Crud gets trapped down in between the pleats, and once trapped it pretty much stay there.


Thanks for the link to the discussion. My OEM filter is a 20 ;b bypass, the replacement is 8-10 Wix. Don't know for sure how much difference there is in the media sq inches yet.

My peak oil pressure though with the Wix seems to be a bit higher. 90 lbs is the most I have seen on hot oil near redline with 0w40 oil. Before with a 30 lbs Baldwin I saw around 80 lbs.


Is the replacement WIX one that WIX specifies for your application? As mentioned, the bypass valve setting is also dependant on the filter's ability to flow oil, and on how much delta-p it can withstand before being damaged. If the WIX with the 8-10 psi bypass setting is specified for you car, then WIX most certainly knows it's OK for your application.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: rrounds
Where did the extra 10 psi of oil pressure go? With a P/D pump it had to go somewhere. Unless you have a leak somewhere between the oil pump and the oil pressure gauge.


I think he's probably talking about max oil pressure seen at red line ... that is the only time you would see a difference in oil pressure due to a change in the flow restriction of an oil filter on a positive displacement oil pump.

 

[e55amgbenz007]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
@HerrStig, how/why would a 205/65-15 tire last longer than 195/70-14? In fact, in many cases both the above sizes would be available for the same car, like the 90s Camry.

Entirely different reasoning from the oil filters.
THe 205 60 is the same height but wider and has a higher load capacity. Now we can argue compound ansd construction all night but based on my experience the 15 will last longer. BTW, I know Gen 4 Camrys inside and out and have upgraded to 15 on two of them to deal with the lousy handling the 14s provided. In 2001, BTW, Toyota went to 15s on all the 4 cyl Camrys and 16s on the V6.


I have a 2003 Camry 3.0 V6 with factory 15" rims.

 

[3311]

A random late night thought. I would bet the fuel savings of running a oversized less restrictive oil filter would rival that of a 5w20 vs. 5w30.
That is to say it is minuscule and hard to measure but there.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Miniscule is right ... probably change your gas mileage more by sitting at a train crossing idling for 5 minutes.

 

[dnewton3]

To say it is miniscule is an overstatement.

The daily variance of normal operation of any vehicle far outweighs these theoretical discussions of "gain" from upsizing a filter. What can be proved in the lab does not always equate to the reality of life.

Consider this: every ying has a yang. A larger filter that may cool a tiny bit "better" due to surface area and capacity in summer, also delays the proper warm-up of the oil in winter. And right now, there is probably some BITOGer out there trying to maximize every last opportunity. Perhaps he'll use an oversized filter for cooling the summer, and then FCI to an undersized one in winter ...

For those who upsize a filter to satisfy that itch, I say go for it. But it is an emotional reaction not based on any tangible real-world data.

Believe it or not, I do use non-spec'd filters in some of my applications. But I do so realizing that I, the individual, am the one at risk and would have full burden, should the unthinkable happen. I do it as a matter of convenience (commonality of filters, for example), not because I think the filter will reduce wear or aid in cooling. All of my equipment is out of OEM warranty, and so I only have to contend with the filter warranty. That risk, regardless of how remote, is mine to bear should something fail. I accept that.


Consider this reality; many OEMs are now extending their O/FCIs, and yet downsizing the filters. What's that tell you? And they have WAY more resources (time, engineers, labs, test equipment) than any of us will ever have in our garage. Some of these vehicles are seeing O/FCIs at 2x or more of what they used to be, and they do so on a smaller filter in many examples. My Fussion could easily go 10k miles on that tiny FL910 filter. And the UOAs showed even longer OCIs were attainable.

You want to upsize? Go for it! But understand there is no rational claim to wear reduction, pumping loss reduction or cooling gained by upsizing a filter in the normal world. And the risk of going off the reservation, however remote, is yours to bear alone.

 

[3311]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/graemlins/21.gif[/IMG]


For those who upsize a filter to satisfy that itch, I say go for it. But it is an emotional reaction not based on any tangible real-world data.

Believe it or not, I do use non-spec'd filters in some of my applications. But I do so realizing that I, the individual, am the one at risk and would have full burden, should the unthinkable happen. I do it as a matter of convenience (commonality of filters, for example), not because I think the filter will reduce wear or aid in cooling. All of my equipment is out of OEM warranty, and so I only have to contend with the filter warranty. That risk, regardless of how remote, is mine to bear should something fail. I accept that.


Consider this reality; many OEMs are now extending their O/FCIs, and yet downsizing the filters. What's that tell you? And they have WAY more resources (time, engineers, labs, test equipment) than any of us will ever have in our garage. Some of these vehicles are seeing O/
FCIs at 2x or more of what they used to be, and they do so on a smaller filter in many examples. My Fussion could easily go 10k miles on that tiny FL910 filter. And the UOAs showed even longer OCIs were attainable.

You want to upsize? Go for it! But understand there is no rational claim to wear reduction, pumping loss reduction or cooling gained by upsizing a filter in the normal world. And the risk of going off the reservation, however remote, is yours to bear alone.

Valid points to be sure but l have a hard time believing that mfg's are choosing smaller filters because they are optimal. Adequate sure. In today's world as you well know engineers routinely are overruled due to cost considerations. Heck mfg's could be choosing filter size baseed on packaging size and wharehousing costs.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

You can't go too high on a bypass valve because part of the purpose of the bypass valve is to also protect the media from damage from too much delta-p across the filter. If filters are changed before they get too loaded up, I don't think the bypass valve opens much at all - especially after the oil gets fully hot (good reason to keep your foot out of the throttle until the engine gets warmed up well). It would be hard to get a filter to go into bypass even when running near red line on an engine that puts out pretty good oil flow.

Checkout this Thread (Link)

I don't see how a high setting on a bypass valve would cause less gunk to be trapped by the media and collect someplace else. Any time the bypass valve is closed, the oil has to go through the media and therefore crud will be caught in the media. Crud gets trapped down in between the pleats, and once trapped it pretty much stay there.


Thanks for the link to the discussion. My OEM filter is a 20 ;b bypass, the replacement is 8-10 Wix. Don't know for sure how much difference there is in the media sq inches yet.

My peak oil pressure though with the Wix seems to be a bit higher. 90 lbs is the most I have seen on hot oil near redline with 0w40 oil. Before with a 30 lbs Baldwin I saw around 80 lbs.


Is the replacement WIX one that WIX specifies for your application? As mentioned, the bypass valve setting is also dependant on the filter's ability to flow oil, and on how much delta-p it can withstand before being damaged. If the WIX with the 8-10 psi bypass setting is specified for you car, then WIX most certainly knows it's OK for your application.


No it is not specifically for my application. It was chosen because of fitment issues. I added an oil/water heat exchanger that the filter mounts to so needed a shorter filter.

And yes it is at +7k rpm where the max pressure comes into play.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Consider this reality; many OEMs are now extending their O/FCIs, and yet downsizing the filters. What's that tell you?

It tells me that don't give a darn about my engine past the warranty period. Lifetime fill transmissions are a good counter example. I have one. I do regular drain and fills, because I don't trust the factory to make the correct decision on that one.

Modern manufacturers have recently made, and are still making many mistakes with engines. Sludging engines, oil burning engines, bad oil control rings, bad EGR designs... using the "appeal to authority" fallacy doesn't cut it with me. You see, I've been inside the sausage factory; it's not pretty. It's not all lab coats and data driven decisions.

I do agree with you about one thing, upsizing oil filters offers only miniscule benefits in cooling and filtration. I do it when the cost to me is the same and/or I just happen to have some larger matching filters on hand.

If I was running super-long OCI's I might see a tangible benefit, but I don't do that.

 

[kschachn]

From my perspective that's completely unsubstantiated. For my part I have nearly always used the OEM Toyota filters (or the Denso equivalent), and despite being "undersized" and continuously criticized here on BITOG for their abysmal filtering efficiencies, I still somehow have managed to get well over a half million miles out of the two. The one on my ECHO is -tiny-, and I've never used a larger one on either car. Plus the Sienna is known for being hard on oil so I really don't know how your assertion can be made.

FWIW I also use the abysmally inefficient Honda OEM filters on the Accord. Neither the Toyotas nor the Honda use more than one quart of oil in a typical OCI on Mobil 1 (Sienna at 7000, ECHO at 10,000+, Accord at approx. 10,000).

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Consider this reality; many OEMs are now extending their O/FCIs, and yet downsizing the filters. What's that tell you?

It tells me that don't give a darn about my engine past the warranty period. Lifetime fill transmissions are a good counter example. I have one. I do regular drain and fills, because I don't trust the factory to make the correct decision on that one.

Modern manufacturers have recently made, and are still making many mistakes with engines. Sludging engines, oil burning engines, bad oil control rings, bad EGR designs... using the "appeal to authority" fallacy doesn't cut it with me. You see, I've been inside the sausage factory; it's not pretty. It's not all lab coats and data driven decisions.

I do agree with you about one thing, upsizing oil filters offers only miniscule benefits in cooling and filtration. I do it when the cost to me is the same and/or I just happen to have some larger matching filters on hand.

If I was running super-long OCI's I might see a tangible benefit, but I don't do that.

 

[dnewton3]

Instead of thinking that we're being cheated (for a lack of a better term) in the OEMs downsizing filters, perhaps look at it in a different manner?

It's pretty obvious to me that even "normal" (non-premium) filters can easily go up to 3x the O/FCI of days gone by. I've done it multiple times and have the data to prove it.

So by downsizing the filters in new applications, they are not cheating us by using an inferior filter, but rather doing a better job of matching the intended OCI to the FCI.

We are doing this (as many companies do) with a "same as" mentality. We look for products that perform to an equal level, but offer a savings.

The older, larger filters were so grossly over-capacitzed that it makes sense to downsize them. But in no way does that infer the protection is inferior somehow.

But don't trust the OEMs if you don't want to. Do your own testing. Run some UOAs with your oversized filter, then try a smaller one for several OCIs. See if you can clearly discern any difference outside of normal variance. For a "normal" OCI, I project that you'll NEVER see any TANGIBLE difference in wear data. And I have over 10,000 UOAs in all manner of applications to back that up.

What the OEMs are starting to do is offer a much better match up between ever-improving lubes and ever-cleaner running engines with filters that will easily perform just as well, but perhaps with less "excess" capacity.

Again for the 1000th+time, if anyone has hard data that conclusively shows bigger filters are "better" in normal circumstances, they by all means, post it up!

 

[SHOZ]

Another reason for the downsizing of the filters is the EPA. Even the same numbers filters are smaller than before such as the Motorcraft FL-1A.

The Hyundai spec spin on filter has been used for 40 years though and is the same size since the 80's by Mazda and other Asian cars and except for internal improvements has been the same small physical size.