READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I think if the engine is almost-always hot, then a xW-30 or xW-40 weight will be okay.
There's not much thickness difference from the xW-20 weight at operating temperature


There might not be much of a difference between a high X/20 and a low X/30, but if you take average figures for each group there is. Most modern engines are good with mid X/30 and only need a 40 when well worn or subject to severe use in a hot climate.
The anti wear additives are as important as the actual viscosity down the thin 20 end and because sludge is far more serious if the bearing oil films and pressures are already near the limits, so are the detergents and dispersants if you want to use a sensible OCI.
It obviously helps to use a good full synthetic in terms of reducing high temp shearing, but it is much more important for thin oil users than the X/40 crowd, who like lots of room for a long OCI even if they use a part synthetic. It's a lot cheaper in oil & filter terms to use a good part synthetic 5 or 10/40 with a 10K mile OCI, than using an 0 or 5/20 with a 5K mile OCI. Cheaper oil half as often saves money and as long as it has a similar quality the wear factors might be lower if the OCI figure is correct.

 

[crazyoildude]

Bottom line if your engine calls for a 5w20 use 5w20 the state police found out that 5w20 works best in their modulars the hard way. We do the rebuilds and 5w20 oil is the way to go if the engine calls for it. all we do is rebuild engines we know something about them and i use 5w20 in mine as for the original manufacture of the engines they know best if they say use 5w20 use it cafe or not it works!

 

[blackman777]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
the state police found out that 5w20 works best in their modulars the hard way.

What? Tour sentence does not parse.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Bottom line if your engine calls for a 5w20 use 5w20 the state police found out that 5w20 works best in their modulars the hard way. We do the rebuilds and 5w20 oil is the way to go if the engine calls for it. all we do is rebuild engines we know something about them and i use 5w20 in mine as for the original manufacture of the engines they know best if they say use 5w20 use it cafe or not it works!


Did the state Police run half their new fleet on 5/30 and half on 5/20 of similar quality and the same OCI and then publish the results after 10 years, or have they published a long term post warranty UOA survey anywhere?
Police cars don't do many car chases like the old days and spend a lot of time at idle, so sludge and fuel contamination are probably the main long term risks in oil choice terms. Which exact oil did they use, as they might have used a better 0/20?

 

[Boatowner]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Bottom line if your engine calls for a 5w20 use 5w20 the state police found out that 5w20 works best in their modulars the hard way. We do the rebuilds and 5w20 oil is the way to go if the engine calls for it. all we do is rebuild engines we know something about them and i use 5w20 in mine as for the original manufacture of the engines they know best if they say use 5w20 use it cafe or not it works!


First, it is a little hard to take a guy seriously when he can't write a paragraph in proper English.

Second, since the statement above only talks about 5w-20 oil how are we supposed to conclude it is any better for the cruisers than 5w-30, 0w-20, 10w-30 or 5w-40?

The problem with most of this argument is the lack of science and empirical evidence.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: Trav
You obviously didn't read the article.

Quote:
Federal-Mogul provides both copper/lead and aluminum bearings. But perceptions are changing with respect to aluminum versus copper/lead," said Federal-Mogul's Ron Thompson. "Most of the original equipment manufacturers are going to aluminum bearings, as are a growing number of rebuilders in the aftermarket. Many people are switching to aluminum because it provides improved durability and better control over tolerances.

"Overplated bearings tend to trap and hold dirt that can score the crankshaft. But aluminum bearings tend to flush out debris rather than hold it. Aluminum bearing alloys also contain silicone which helps resist seizure and actually polishes the crank.

"I can see the day when traditional copper/lead bearings may only be used for racing," said Thompson.



Alloy bearings are cheaper and they don't last, that is the only reason why there is a move to use more alloy by folks like VW in particular. They probably won't wear out within the warranty period too often, but the Kap figure for them means the oil film is so thin they rely on AW and EP additives in the oil, which is one reason for keeping the OCI figures short (Or reducing them for one GM model).
The main cost of a plain bearing is materials not surface preparation, if they wanted the engine to last longer on thin oil they would just polish up the old bearings to a greater degree.
A particle streak does not last as long in an alloy bearing due to the softer metal, but it does just as much damage, so I expect the PR folks are trying to use that fact to say they are better, whilst avoiding the fact they are not made in the US or EU are recently back specced to some 3rd world country because the original version lasted too long.


I cant be bothered addressing all the misinformation.
Read this..

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1084/engine_bearings_stock__performance.aspx

Keep in mind this is from 05. Do your own google, there are quite a few US and Euro manufacturers and even better alu alloys now.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Danh
We have a real-world, large number comparison of 5w/20 vs 5w/30 longevity going on right now: Ford vs GM. Ford has recommended 5w/20 for at least a decade while GM continues with 5w/30.

If 5w/20 really shortened engine life by 30%, don't you think Ford would be suffering in comparison to GM? It seems to me there is no real perceived difference in engine longevity between the two. The bottom line seems to be that 5w/20 allows an engine to last every bit as long as 5w/30 if the engine was designed with it in mind. Also, let's not forget that a disproportinate amount of wear occurs on cold start-ups, where a lighter grade of oil is helpful.

But as others have said, if you feel beter going "thicker", have at it.


Very true, perhaps this "less wear at startup due to the thinner 5w20 grade oil" much more than "offsets the actual high temperature wear" , if in fact 90% wear at startup is correct for most engines at all real-world startup ambient temperatures.

Has any car owner so far ever complained or reported a short-lived failed engine problem, when he/she used a 5w20 oil ?
Perhaps not.
Better initial oil flow is very important for engine longevity.

 

[Shannow]

Can you demonstrate that a 5W-20 will "flow" better, and that this "flow" reduces engine wear ?

 

[blackman777]

I don't mind shortening my Civic Hybrid's life by 30%.

 

[Shannow]

Who said anything about 30% ???

The same people who talk piles of failed engines...

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Can you demonstrate that a 5W-20 will "flow" better, and that this "flow" reduces engine wear ?
Such a universal demonstration may not be possible... every engine design may have some differences favoring a 0w/5w-20 grade over a 0w/5w-30 or vice versa !

On the flip side, can you demonstrate if a 5w-30 will flow better, or, can you demonstrate with proof that a 5w-30 somehow "magically" reduces engine wear over a 5w-20 grade ???

 

[blackman777]

QUOTE:"The bad news is the about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years) caused by the thinner oil."

Well bummer.

 

[Kuato]

To throw in a little monkey wrench, Toyota's owners manual says 0w20 for the FJ Cruiser, but also states that a higher viscosity "may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions". IMO this indicates that the Toyota engineers understand a higher weight may very well protect better in those cases. (Yes, "high speeds" and "extreme load" are subject to interpretation)

 

[KCJeep]

Ah I see your Grand is gone Kuato.

Our 2012 KIA manual pushes 5w20 like a commissioned salesman, but immediately defaults to 5w30 or 10w30 for hot weather or towing. So 5w20 just ain't all that IMO.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Ah I see your Grand is gone Kuato.

Our 2012 KIA manual pushes 5w20 like a commissioned salesman, but immediately defaults to 5w30 or 10w30 for hot weather or towing. So 5w20 just ain't all that IMO.



Yeah it's on the way out...sad to see it go but just cannot correct the handling problem after getting rear ended, despite replacing the entire rear suspension and most of the front.

I am sure that 5w20 works well for many engines; but the more I see/read, the more it seems that a 30 weight is better for heavier duty...but then again there are so many stellar Ford and Honda and Toyota UOAs showing the oil was fine but then again there have been no teardowns to check actual wear....

My head is spinning. I will be using a 20wt in the F150.

 

[Errtt]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep

Our 2012 KIA manual pushes 5w20 like a commissioned salesman, but immediately defaults to 5w30 or 10w30 for hot weather or towing. So 5w20 just ain't all that IMO.


yeah my 2010 Hyundai shows 5w-20 on the fill cap, the book, but the book also states 5w-30 or 10w-30 for high temp operations.


I think if a 20 cuts life by a third, it would be so well known nobody would want to do that.

 

[wemay]

I will be using Edge w/ti 5w20 in my Hyundai since on the back of the OM (quick reference section), 5w20 is a listed option. I bought 55 qts for $3 ea. during the AutoZone clearance and will use it under the severe service schedule since I live in S. Florida (heat, traffic) and its a GDI turbo.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I don't mind shortening my Civic Hybrid's life by 30%.
Originally Posted By: blackman777
I don't mind shortening my Civic Hybrid's life by 30%.



Give me a break. That's info,if true would be all over the place. You've taking the bullpie award for sure with that one.

Originally Posted By: blackman777
QUOTE:"The bad news is the about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years) caused by the thinner oil."

Well bummer.




Quoted from who. An oem engineering department,because short of that who out there can feasibly test each model over years insuring that the oil used was consistent every time and who kept track.

More absurdity.

I really hope visitors don't see that stuff and just believe it.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Kuato
To throw in a little monkey wrench, Toyota's owners manual says 0w20 for the FJ Cruiser, but also states that a higher viscosity "may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions". IMO this indicates that the Toyota engineers understand a higher weight may very well protect better in those cases. (Yes, "high speeds" and "extreme load" are subject to interpretation)


The high speeds or extreme load they are referring to equates to increased oil temps and a 30 grade would essentially have the same film thickness as the 20 grade at the elevated oil temp.
If oil temps aren't excessive then that extra film thickness isn't required. The engine needs an oil film minimum,anything more than the minimum then drag is increased.
If the minimum keeps the moving parts separated going thicker gains nothing. If the oil film is unbroken with thinner oil then wear would be unaffected with a thicker oil film. Either way the oil film is there.
Sure if a person sustains oil temps of 280f every time they hit the highway then yeah going up a grade may improve wear however if the oil film strength is adequate at those temps then going thicker creating a thicker oil film improves nothing.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: wemay
I will be using Edge w/ti 5w20 in my Hyundai since on the back of the OM (quick reference section), 5w20 is a listed option. I bought 55 qts for $3 ea. during the AutoZone clearance and will use it under the severe service schedule since I live in S. Florida (heat, traffic) and its a GDI turbo.


Unless exposed to extreme hot or cold temps an engine doesn't care about ambient temps and oil temps are basically the same whether its 100f or -30f.
110f to an engine is a cold start. My chargers oil temps a basically the same whether its -30c outside or 30c,it just takes a bit longer to get there when its really cold.
My coolant temp is the same in summer or winter. Oil temps are also consistent from my observations with my charger.