READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: skyship


Car bodies do last a lot longer than they used to but modern cars have some very expensive parts that wear out some time after the warranty that are something of an issue in terms scrapping cars that could be repaired. Self levelling shocks and expensive exhaust systems are top of the list, although the ECU and other electronic boxes fitted to the new generation diesels are also very expensive to replace.


Everything lasts longer on cars, including engines running 5W-20.

If you guys WANT to believe that that vehicles will somehow get more engine life using a 5W-30 than a 5W-20, go ahead. But there isn't the evidence from Australia or the UK to base this assessment on, there is much in North America to the contrary.

You're just rationalizing a largely impulsive, emotive belief with selective anecdotes and B.S...


+1. I may be the BITOG poster boy for 0-20 oils. I plan to keep both cars for an extended period of time and plan to use 20wt all the way with 10K OCIs. Thus far no need to change to 30wt.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Skyship, if it is true (and I certainly have my doubts) that these bean counters are the driving force behind the thin oils, isn't it still possible that they're right? What I'm proposing is this:

They've got the studies and done the math and worked out that the fuel savings over the life of a vehicle outweighs the costs of replacing the vehicle more frequently. Now, for those who choose to keep their vehicle longer there is the option of an engine rebuild which costs considerably less than replacing the complete vehicle.

One thing about these people you call bean counters is that they're usually pretty good at math.


Except that the immediate financial benefits of CAFE are given to the manufacturer now, and any potential future costs (like replacement) are born by the buyer in the future.

It's not a proper cost/benefit analysis at that point.

Ford Pinto proved just how readily beancounters are willing to push costs onto others when it helps their balance sheet.


And absolutely no evidence that 5W-20 has led to a lower life expectancy as I know several with Fords and Hondas well over 150K miles...

These redundant [censored] threads are just silly...


We've got crews in our sub-divisions with ford trucks pulling trailers with 400000kms. Most are over 300000kms,pulling trailers too and from the sites,gas pedal floored plowing thru drifts and I make a point of going and talking to the owners about them.
The 4.6/5.4 engines have proven just as durable using a 20 grade as the 5.0/5.8 they replaced that used a 30 grade.
In a lab under their test conditions there might be more wear but out here in the real world,under real driving conditions the motors that specify thinner oils aren't dissolving,in fact they are running more miles than ever before.
Data or drop it.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: skyship


Car bodies do last a lot longer than they used to but modern cars have some very expensive parts that wear out some time after the warranty that are something of an issue in terms scrapping cars that could be repaired. Self levelling shocks and expensive exhaust systems are top of the list, although the ECU and other electronic boxes fitted to the new generation diesels are also very expensive to replace.


Everything lasts longer on cars, including engines running 5W-20.

If you guys WANT to believe that that vehicles will somehow get more engine life using a 5W-30 than a 5W-20, go ahead. But there isn't the evidence from Australia or the UK to base this assessment on, there is much in North America to the contrary.

You're just rationalizing a largely impulsive, emotive belief with selective anecdotes and B.S...


+1. I may be the BITOG poster boy for 0-20 oils. I plan to keep both cars for an extended period of time and plan to use 20wt all the way with 10K OCIs. Thus far no need to change to 30wt.


See. Tig has 100000+ miles on his engines running a 20 grade. When exactly does everything loosen up and he has to go up a grade.
It might be a good theory but out here in the real world proving grounds engines aren't dissolving.

 

[blackman777]

Last week someone posted a graph about "boundary lubrication". It showed that the only reason 20 weight oils don't kill the engine is because they are heavily fortified with antiwear additives. Without those the 20 weight oil would be completely inadequate to prevent metal-on-metal wear.

Two problems: (1) When the additives run-out, such as during long intervals between changes, the 20 weight oil is not thick enough to stop metal-on-metal contact. (2) The number of antiwear additives have dropped in recent years because of fear of poisoning the catalytic converter and soot traps. So the number of miles you can go before the oil is "done" is less.

IMHO

 

[Hyde244]

^ This is a purely subjective theory - there are any number of alternative factors that would lead to increased engine wear: driving conditions, outside environment, etc.

A way to test this would be an engine on a dyno running 5w20 and 5w20 with a UOA. I'd like to see results from such a test.

 

[Shannow]

Nah, there's actually laws of physics that come into play...actusly, laws of physics surround us every day whether we believe in them or not.

 

[1999nick]

I do not know how good the XW20 oils of today are, but, back in the 1950's everyone used straight 20 weights. I used Sinclair 20 weight in my 1954 Ford V-8, purchased new in August of 1954. by the summer of 1959, I had 140,000 miles on it, and it still ran good, did not smoke, and burned a negligible amount of oil.

Back in those days, it was usual to change over to 30 weight oil if your engine began to use an excessive amount of oil.

During those years, I was between 18 and 23 years old, and used the engine very hard, as is mandatory for that age group. My car had the overdrive transmission, and I was always revving it up to 30mph in low gear, lifting my foot to let the overdrive cut in, and then on up to 50+ in overdrive low; same thing in second gear: raise foot at 70, let overdrive second come in and then on to 94 in overdrive second.

Still, using 1950's 20 weight, that engine showed no ill effects at 140,000 miles. If today's 20 weights are as good as those of the 1950's, there should be no worry using them in an engine where they are recommended.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
Last week someone posted a graph about "boundary lubrication". It showed that the only reason 20 weight oils don't kill the engine is because they are heavily fortified with antiwear additives. Without those the 20 weight oil would be completely inadequate to prevent metal-on-metal wear.

Two problems: (1) When the additives run-out, such as during long intervals between changes, the 20 weight oil is not thick enough to stop metal-on-metal contact. (2) The number of antiwear additives have dropped in recent years because of fear of poisoning the catalytic converter and soot traps. So the number of miles you can go before the oil is "done" is less.
IMHO


But that opinion is long on hyperbole and short on facts.

Too much tech is involved and the mfgrs have done outrageous amounts of testing and all dealers send documentation back to mama, too. Variable displacement oil pumps, much larger sumps, etc. are the norm for new cars now, all DESIGNED with 20w oil in mind.

There will always be the one car outside the norm with an issue, but for the overwhelming majority of owners 20w will never even be a noticeable difference. Only road course tracked cars really need heavier weights.

 

[bojangles]

I worked in service stations (Standard, DX, andGulf) in the mid 50's to 1961.
We done a lot of oil changes using straight 20 weight, and DX had a straight 10 weight that some used in winter.
Most cars switched over to straight 30 weight in the summer.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: skyship
Car bodies do last a lot longer than they used to but modern cars have some very expensive parts that wear out some time after the warranty that are something of an issue in terms scrapping cars that could be repaired. Self levelling shocks and expensive exhaust systems are top of the list, although the ECU and other electronic boxes fitted to the new generation diesels are also very expensive to replace.


So why the crusade against thin oils then?

Canada has one of the harshest environments for car operation in the world. Yet, people that rust proof their cars, seem to have no problems getting their car into 300,000+ km ranges with the cheapest dino oils usually in 5w30 or 5w20 grades. We also have to pass emission test every two years which I never had any problems with and most people I talk to have no problems with passing these tests either.

In Ontario the failure rate was so low that they decided to go to the OBD2 scanner tests only, to lower the costs of operating dyno machines I guess. If oil was such a big deal, it surely would show up in Canadian climate. Yet everybody just keeps on chugging along and piling on miles on their rides.


Ontario is the toughest province in the country as far as vehicle inspections too.
From what Trav just posted though he is correct that we have less fit vehicles on the road as compared to Europe. You should see the reservation vans around here. The brake pedal is for show,they stop with both feet like the flintstones.
The thick thin thing is mute when a vehicles lifespan is a decade and the body,not the engine sends it to the crusher.
If we use 10 years as the average,then in that 10 years,in North America,we use less fuel in a comparable engine over that 10 year lifespan vs a European vehicle. If the body sends it to the crusher then who cares if the engine is worn out or not,the car is a boat anchor.
So if a thin oil maintains the whole cars lifespan and uses less fuel doing it,before it gets crushed then where is the issue.
And I know from experience the scrapyard is filled with vehicles where the engine runs mint,but the car is rotted away,using thinner oil.
I am now lost as to the point of this debate. In a decade the cars are dead anyways,does the engine even matter anymore,its going to get melted down whether it runs stellar or not.


Umm, there is about a 1.5% difference between using a 5/20 and a 5/30, the cost of the oil in what might be twice the number of OCI's will be higher than the fuel saved. The body of a well built car in most countries will last 20 years plus, BUT parts of the braking, suspension and transmission system might not.

 

[SLCraig]

I cannot add much here, but I will say this..
My Honda uses 20 weight, and it has 90KM on it with no issues so far, engine runs tight and uses next to zero oil. I am not afraid to use the go pedal on my commute to work either. I plan on sticking with 20 weight.
All my cars before that used 30 weight and I never had a problem with their engines either (at least not caused from my ownership) and I stuck with manufacturer suggested grades there as well. (5w30)

Bottom line: Follow MFR suggestions. It's easier to just sleep at night if you don't overthink it.

 

[skyship]

If you want to do some light reading try looking for an article I have a PDF for on my company system. I'm not sure if it's a small book or magazine, but the title is Tribology and Lubrication Technology. Date 24 Aug 2008, article Best Practices by Mike Johnson, contributing editor.
Summary

Element bearings are manufactured in a variety of sizes and
configurations. Ball bearings have lower contact areas than
thrust bearings. Bearings with higher contact areas can support
greater loads. Element bearings have clearly definable
minimum allowable viscosity limits.
There is a relatively simple approach that a reliability engineer
may use to verify that the correct viscosities have been
selected. Viscosities should be optimized to a level at least
three times greater than the allowable minimum. Bearings
that operate with viscosities below the recommended minimum
limit should incorporate wear and seizure resistant additives
(AW/EP).

So what he is saying in effect is that the oils inclusive additives are very important if you are not able to maintain the correct oil film thickness and the article then wanders off into talking about EP & AW additives, after starting about the need to match temperature to oil viscosity etc.
In other words if you want to use a 20 grade in a vehicle subject to severe duty use and high temps in particular DON'T USE CHEAP DINO BLENDS, use a top quality G4 or 5 full synthetic with the max amount of Zinc, Moly and other non detergent additives, because you are going to need them. If you use a 5/30 then a dino blend might be OK and if you are able to use a 10/40, then any old oil will do in bearing protection terms for a particular modern engine assuming the same OCI.
Obviously if you don't want to waste fuel or oil then consider using a top quality 0 or 5/30 full synthetic and extending the OCI towards the EU recommended max with a few UOA's to confirm all is well.

 

[Clevy]

That article is from 2008. You don't think oil tech has improved since then?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
That article is from 2008. You don't think oil tech has improved since then?


It's listed on my system because it's still regarded as valid, although there are more different AW and EP additives available to oil chemists. The quality of the bearings in use in a modern 2012 spec car is often lower than those in a 2008 car due to back speccing that is rampant at present to reduce production costs. Some R&D effort was put into improving ring design to reduce oil consumption, but not bearings which is where the savings are being made. I suspect the article is even more valid in terms of main bearing wear than when it was written.
I think it was one of the articles partly written in response to a request from Ford in the US to their main dealers in the EU, that they use the same oil as them. Dagenham motors asked for supporting documentation from test runs etc, which Ford had a slight problem with supplying.

 

[Hyde244]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
There will always be the one car outside the norm with an issue, but for the overwhelming majority of owners 20w will never even be a noticeable difference. Only road course tracked cars really need heavier weights.
+1

Engine technology is simply advancing to a point where 5w30 is indeed too thick. GF-6 for instance will create an entirely new class of thin oil that will not be usable on older engines, including a new SAE 16 oil.

The industry is continuing with thinner oils to meet the needs of new engines.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
There will always be the one car outside the norm with an issue, but for the overwhelming majority of owners 20w will never even be a noticeable difference. Only road course tracked cars really need heavier weights.
+1

Engine technology is simply advancing to a point where 5w30 is indeed too thick. GF-6 for instance will create an entirely new class of thin oil that will not be usable on older engines, including a new SAE 16 oil.

The industry is continuing with thinner oils to meet the needs of new engines.


That's advertising from the CAFE bean counters, they are pushing to use a straight 10 grade outside of Canada and Alaska in the long term. A straight 10 grade dino oil with an orange can of ultimate protection changed every 3K miles and a 3 year warranty is all the CAFE bean counters dream of. The only thing the design teams are doing is trying to figure out how to keep the oil consumption below 1 quart per 1K miles.
I think I will stay with the engine for life, no top up oil and 10 to 20K mile 5/40 OCI camp. Ford and GM have got lots of support from the Iffy lube owners for post warranty servicing.

 

[Zaedock]

Originally Posted By: Hyde244
GF-6 for instance will create an entirely new class of thin oil that will not be usable on older engines, including a new SAE 16 oil.


If you can call "acceptable" performance an improvement.

 

[skyship]

Bottom line: Follow MFR suggestions. It's easier to just sleep at night if you don't overthink it.

Yes, follow the MFR suggestions and engine oil company advice, BUT only read what they say outside the US or Japan, where accurate and free speech by R&D designers and engineers is still possible

 

[Hyde244]

Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Originally Posted By: Hyde244
GF-6 for instance will create an entirely new class of thin oil that will not be usable on older engines, including a new SAE 16 oil.


If you can call "acceptable" performance an improvement.

a.k.a. The oil you'll need to fulfill warranty of future cars.

 

[rvt]

I use the Toyota 0W20 in my '12 Camry and now have Mobil 1 5W20 installed in my Ford V10 motorhome. I have no concerns about shortened engine longevity.

Twenty weight oils have long been recommended for summer use. GM recommended 20wt in many engines in the '50s and '60s. Ford has recommended 5W20 for a decade or more. There is less difference between a 20 and 30 weight oil than the numbers 20 and 30 would imply (look up HTHS specs for these oils). Maybe the oils should be referred to as 27 and 31 for very typical HTHS specs for these products.

I used to be a fan of heavier than recommended oils here in so. CA. I used 15W50 Mobil 1 in my 1992 Chev truck for 40 mile commutes. But I've seen time and time again engines which ran the 20 wt. factory spec oil for many years and miles, and they run great with clean internals, minimal blowby, and low consumption.

The concept of a 30% life reduction is laughable as a blanket statement. Many automotive trips are short, many at greatly reduced loading, and many in mild to cold weather. It is my view the engineers are recording very low or no additional wear from the 20 weight oil at any range of the conditions the cars see during their proving tests, including ultra hot testing in AZ and Death Valley. It is also my view the engines have better rigidity and control oil temps better than they did in the past.

I'd consider going up a grade only if the vehicle was operated extensively at or beyond the factory tested limits. I'm not even close.