READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
You may have some big misunderstandings in basic engineering terms.
Documenting some of what you write might add some credibility to what you post.
Incidentally, back in the 'fifties, 20W-20 was the winter standard oil for cars in the US, so thinner oils are nothing new in this country.
No CAFE back then.
No CAFE when 10W-30 was the standard oil for almost every engine either.
You need to adjust to the idea that thinner oils on 8-10K change intervals may be optimal, which is why they're recommended here, in the land of cheap motor oil and long lived vehicles.
We drive a lot more here than you do there and we put more miles on our vehicles before they're scrapped.
Kind of turns that thick oil and long OCI thing around, doesn't it?


20 grade might have been the only cheap low viscosity oil available in the fifties, as multigrades were still new back then so folks changed oil viscosity with the seasons.
30 grades are generally regarded as the optimum oil grades for many engines in good condition and 10/30 is still a popular rating for long life oils.
There is no comparison between vehicle use in the US and the EU, most cars in the EU are diesels and are subject to very severe inspections.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
skyship, you claimed that filter efficiency through long oci's are an important determinant of wear.

Please provide some facts to prove this.

Please explain why Toyota have OEM filters with only 50% efficiency yet in the US, land of cheap dino oil and short oci's, they have incredible reliability with the lowest spec oil and these least efficient filters.

You keep on providing theory with no quantification. And when the real world quantification, be it Toyotas with the lowest oil and filter specs or Fords running for hundreds of thousands of miles on cheap 20 weight dino is presented to you, you just go into parrot mode.

Put up or shut up.


What micron particle size was the 50% for?? Most manufacturers use good oil filters as they have a very big influence on engine wear, BUT the advertising for the aftermarket ones often quotes very high efficiency figures (I even saw 99.9% quoted in one advert), which are final filtration efficiency figures NOT clean filter figures. An oil filter is most efficient just before it blocks, but obviously very few folks go chasing the ultimate efficiency figures, so if you are comparing filters it is more important to compare clean efficiency figures.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: skyship
This is another good summary from Synlube:

CONCLUSION
When to use SAE 5W-20 (or SAE 0W-20) Motor Oil ?
When "fuel economy" is paramount in importance
If you are LEASING the vehicle for NOT LONGER than the OEM Engine Warranty
If you are not planning to keep the vehicle past the OEM Engine Warranty

When NOT to use SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil
If your vehicle has "High Performance" or "Heavy-Duty" Engine
If you live in very HOT Climate, where you do not encounter below freezing temperatures
If you plan to tow anything with your vehicle
If you plan to keep you vehicle longer than the OEM Engine Warranty duration
If you subject your vehicle to "high-loads", like frequent "up-hill" travel
If minimal Engine wear is more important to you than "fuel economy"



Oh no..... synlube????? The guy who claims that you never have to change his oil. But also claims that you just send the old oil back and get more *free*. Who claims every engine can use his 5w-50. AKA 5w-we really have no idea.

That whole website, full of unverifiable information, (some don't have a problem with that.) pics of cars with their so called "owners." (some have been identified as models, other as XXX stars.) All devoted soley to sell an oil from a super secret DoE bae in Nevada. One that according to the DoE, (yes, I asked.), is not open to the general public.

 

[skyship]

Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.

 

[skyship]

One point about this discussion is that we are in reality getting off track with the thick vs thin game, because manufacturers that recommend a top quality full synthetic 0/20 rather than a cheap dino blend 5/30 are effectively recommending an oil that will have a similar viscosity in use due to the cheaper oil shearing to a lower grade.
If you use a 5/20 rather than a 5/30 of a similar type and change it twice as often, it also means there will be little difference in viscosity terms, although in engine wear terms using clean oil filters too often is not good news, although some cars have oil service schedules that only change the filter on an alternate basis which does help with filter efficiency.
My dispute with the CAFE orientated bean counters is that they have caused the manufacturers to offer incorrect advice to owners and have prevented the extension of the OCI as far as it could be extended and that is one big waste of oil and filters.
I am very surprised that some folks can't understand that the advice they are given in the US is being distorted by the bean counters and that some manufacturers of cheaper cars are not being careful enough about the quality of the 5/20 oils the recommend. A fully synthetic 0/20 long life oil will hold grade longer than some dino blend 5/20.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: skyship
I am very surprised that some folks can't understand that the advice they are given in the US is being distorted by the bean counters


People understand that CAFE has created incentives to improve fuel economy and when lighter oil is a path that is chosen, then we also understand that CAFE requires that oil is actually available, used and encouraged to be used.

Now do you understand that lighter oils have been extensively tested and used in millions of vehicles for over a decade now? I think I posted that trillions of miles have been driven on Fords 20 weight oils. Please contradict that evidence.

Originally Posted By: skyship

and that some manufacturers of cheaper cars are not being careful enough about the quality of the 5/20 oils the recommend. A fully synthetic 0/20 long life oil will hold grade longer than some dino blend 5/20.


Some Lexus are spec'd for the most basic 5w20. You know better then them too?

 

[Zako2]

Originally Posted By: skyship
If 20 grade oils were best for engine life expectancy then the manufacturers would recommend their use outside the US or Japan, but apart from some new generation engines and hybrids they don't. It is obvious from the advice that the manufacturers provide outside the US that grades other than 20's should be used under certain circumstances such as severe service use or higher temperatures


I heard Ford is moving its European ecoboost engines to lighter oils as well. This sort of change can't be done overnight.

 

[DragRace]

Week after week we have the same discussion?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Week after week we have the same discussion?

I know! It's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer... it feels so good to stop!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.


Weren't you recommending Amsoil's engine flush a while back, instead of Kreen and MMO snake oils? You know Amsoil's flush as an idle flush, because according to you the other products are NG? You recommend stuff you don't use? I mean here you just said you wouldn't by anything from Amsoil, what gives?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.


Weren't you recommending Amsoil's engine flush a while back, instead of Kreen and MMO snake oils? You know Amsoil's flush as an idle flush, because according to you the other products are NG? You recommend stuff you don't use? I mean here you just said you wouldn't by anything from Amsoil, what gives?


True I don't buy anything from Amsoil because I don't like their marketing methods, they are expensive and not easily available in Germany, but that does not mean they make bad products and their idle flush is a safer product for a modern high tech engine than Moo oil or one of the other drive around flushes. I would remind anyone interested in using a flush that you can still cause an oil leak with a idle flush and if you have sludge following the top and bottom clean up procedure in the maintenance manual is still far safer.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Zako2
Originally Posted By: skyship
If 20 grade oils were best for engine life expectancy then the manufacturers would recommend their use outside the US or Japan, but apart from some new generation engines and hybrids they don't. It is obvious from the advice that the manufacturers provide outside the US that grades other than 20's should be used under certain circumstances such as severe service use or higher temperatures


I heard Ford is moving its European ecoboost engines to lighter oils as well. This sort of change can't be done overnight.


Some new engines have been designed for light oil use and if Ford are recommending 20 grades outside of the US then all is well, BUT in many cases they are singing a different song or not giving a graphical display of operating temperatures vs oil grades as they should. Some of the new generation engines list 5/20 in the US, but both 5/20 and 5/30 outside the US according to temperature.

 

[skyship]

One point worth thinking about when selecting oil grades is what happens if you overheat the engine. It's not unusual during the life of an engine for an incident to occure that causes the engine to overheat and the lower the viscosity of the oil the more easily it will be damaged.
This is part of one document that covers the relationship between viscosity and temperature:

Viscosity and Wear

Thinner oils have less drag, and therefore less friction and wear, right? Perhaps in the test engine or engines that experience normal operation. But somewhat thicker oils may offer more protection for more severe operations such as driving through mountains, pulling a boat, dusty conditions, short trips, high rpm, overloading, overheating and overcooling.

Any abrasive particles equal to or larger than the oil film thickness will cause wear. Filters are necessary to keep contaminants small. The other side of the equation is oil film thickness. Thicker oil films can accommodate larger contaminants.

Temperature has a big effect on viscosity and film thickness. As a point of reference, one SAE grade increase in viscosity is necessary to overcome the influence of a 20°F increase in engine temperature. At a given reference point, there is approximately a 20°F, and difference between viscosities grades SAE 30, 40 and 50. SAE 20 is somewhat closer to 30 than the other jumps, because SAE 30 must be 30°F higher than SAE 20 to be roughly the equivalent viscosity.

In other words, an SAE 20 at 190°F is about the same kinematic viscosity as an SAE 30 at 220°F, which is about the same viscosity as an SAE 40 at 240°F. This approximation works well in the 190°F to 260°F temperature range. One might be surprised at the slight amount of difference between straight viscosity vs. multi-viscosity oils with the same back number (for example, SAE 30, SAE 5W-30, and SAE 10W-30).

If SAE 50 oil at 260°F is as thin as SAE 20 oil at 190°F, imagine how thin the oil film becomes when you are using an SAE 5W-20 and your engine overheats. When an engine overheats, the oil film becomes dangerously thin and can rupture.

Ford is bumping up against its CAFE requirements and recommends SAE 5W-20 oil for most of its engines in the United States. It claims SAE 5W-20 is optimal for fuel efficiency and wear.

To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.


Weren't you recommending Amsoil's engine flush a while back, instead of Kreen and MMO snake oils? You know Amsoil's flush as an idle flush, because according to you the other products are NG? You recommend stuff you don't use? I mean here you just said you wouldn't by anything from Amsoil, what gives?


True I don't buy anything from Amsoil because I don't like their marketing methods, they are expensive and not easily available in Germany, but that does not mean they make bad products and their idle flush is a safer product for a modern high tech engine than Moo oil or one of the other drive around flushes. I would remind anyone interested in using a flush that you can still cause an oil leak with a idle flush and if you have sludge following the top and bottom clean up procedure in the maintenance manual is still far safer.


I don't like Amsoil's marketing methods either so we agree there. However if you haven't used their flush then you really have no first hand experience with the product at all, making your recommendation to use it tough to believe. I recommend products I've actually tried, and then tell it like it is, good or bad.

 

[skyship]

I've used LM idle flush and other idle flushes and the Amsoil product appears to be the same. Castrol also make an idle flush, although it's not easy to find, but is listed in their classic oils section.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.


Yeah, but the only reason he wrote it is to get you to buy his magic juice. The owner also considers the Yugo the finest car ever made. Worth twice as much as a BMW.

There's an epic 77 page thread at Noria where you see him come unglued.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
Yes the Synlube products are nuts, but like the Amsoil dealer web site it does have some well written summaries even though I would not buy anything from Amsoil or Synlube.


Weren't you recommending Amsoil's engine flush a while back, instead of Kreen and MMO snake oils? You know Amsoil's flush as an idle flush, because according to you the other products are NG? You recommend stuff you don't use? I mean here you just said you wouldn't by anything from Amsoil, what gives?


True I don't buy anything from Amsoil because I don't like their marketing methods, they are expensive and not easily available in Germany, but that does not mean they make bad products and their idle flush is a safer product for a modern high tech engine than Moo oil or one of the other drive around flushes. I would remind anyone interested in using a flush that you can still cause an oil leak with a idle flush and if you have sludge following the top and bottom clean up procedure in the maintenance manual is still far safer.


I don't like Amsoil's marketing methods either so we agree there. However if you haven't used their flush then you really have no first hand experience with the product at all, making your recommendation to use it tough to believe. I recommend products I've actually tried, and then tell it like it is, good or bad.


Their old flush SUCKED and it may be why I had to replace my O-ring and timing chain case seal. It was solvent based and pretty harsh on engine seals. The new flush is much much better.

 

[Zako2]

Originally Posted By: skyship
One point worth thinking about when selecting oil grades is what happens if you overheat the engine. It's not unusual during the life of an engine for an incident to occure that causes the engine to overheat and the lower the viscosity of the oil the more easily it will be damaged.


I don't know why this is relevant. A properly functioning and maintained engine should not overheat. If it overheats, the dash light should take a note and take the car to a mechanic.

 

[yonyon]

Skyship, if it is true (and I certainly have my doubts) that these bean counters are the driving force behind the thin oils, isn't it still possible that they're right? What I'm proposing is this:

They've got the studies and done the math and worked out that the fuel savings over the life of a vehicle outweighs the costs of replacing the vehicle more frequently. Now, for those who choose to keep their vehicle longer there is the option of an engine rebuild which costs considerably less than replacing the complete vehicle.

One thing about these people you call bean counters is that they're usually pretty good at math.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: yonyon
Skyship, if it is true (and I certainly have my doubts) that these bean counters are the driving force behind the thin oils, isn't it still possible that they're right? What I'm proposing is this:

They've got the studies and done the math and worked out that the fuel savings over the life of a vehicle outweighs the costs of replacing the vehicle more frequently. Now, for those who choose to keep their vehicle longer there is the option of an engine rebuild which costs considerably less than replacing the complete vehicle.

One thing about these people you call bean counters is that they're usually pretty good at math.


I am a bean counter and I can assure you that we're very good at math.
I direct this post generally, not at you yonyon.
There is nothing to indicate that cars last longer in thick oil zones than they do in the thin oil zones.
Cars die of a thousand cuts, or a failed automatic tranny, not from worn out engines.
Cars are routinely scrapped in the EU at mileages we here would consider laughably short.
What we should really be talking about is vehicle life.
Engine life is only a part of this, and very few cars are scrapped beacuse the engine is worn beyond further use.
You want to talk inspections?
We have emissions tests in many areas of this country.
Are any required in the EU that involve actual dino runs?
We have those in many areas here.
We also have more areas with really bad winter weather than does the EU, and we salt our roads heavily to make them safe to drive on in freezing weather.
Cars still last longer here in miles than they do in the EU.
The EU specs for most makes recommend thicker grades of oil than do the recommendations for the same engines in North America.
The cars don't last as long in the EU.
I'd invite anyone to blow that through their thicker is better trumpet.