Ranking of ATF Fluids?

[amateurbob]

I doubt you will find a straight up, meaningful, statistically valid "ranking".

So as you see here it just breaks down into two things. I think/know this brand is good and "universal" ATF's are good/bad.

I know @MolaKule has some very interesting posts about all the functions of transmission fluid. From my simple understanding if it is synthetic it is usually(but not always) on average better at resisting degradation (shear and temperature). Then the additive package helps preserve the the fluid, reduces transmission wear, and does other functions as well.

With those thoughts l was hoping to get some insight for fluids that would be the best fit with the given parameters.

OEM has its share of problems too. I have read the Honda Z1 fluid broke down very quickly.
I am guessing there might be a few hundred people in the world that have this exact knowledge. I am hoping a few are on the forum.

I know the simplest answer is to just increase the service interval frequency with oem fluid but that seems less than ideal.

I am very much about optimization. For example l have been given compelling arguments for engine air filters and oil filters. I have not found the same understanding for transmission fluid yet.

You are almost certainly correct that this a vibe thing but sometimes we can tease out useful insights kicking the ball around.

 

[martinq]

Does anyone make an aftermarket heavy duty transmission cooler for cvt's? It does seem like some CVT's were picky about fluid and on-time changes.

Nissan actually has a CVT cooler as standard on some cars and an option on some others but you might need to search or contact the service department to find it. Most CVT applications have a fluid WARMER but not necessarily a COOLER. If this is your case you can gain some high-temperature protection by using a 7cSt fluid instead of a 6cSt like Amsoil, Red Line or HPL (call or contact them).

I might try to adapt the Nissan cooler from the Sentra but my CVT fluid only overheats on long, 1hr+ drives in the summer (25C+) which is not much of an issue. Keeping the CVT system clean (magnets, pan, fluid) is as important as keeping the fluid "cool".

 

[martinq]

Got burned for the amount of 3K using Aisin's version of Honda's DW-1 in my 13' CRV AWD. After a few days, I had just 1st gear left -(...No problems with transmission prior to the spill and fill of a lousy 3 quarts. Guess the transmission didn't like it..Off to the dealer it went for a re-man unit with a 3yr / 36K warranty. Went back with Honda DW-1, and put over 100K on it already. Spill and fills every 15K. Lesson learned. Tranny blew @ a measly 60K using Aisin.

This is an unfortunate outcome but if the fluid you used was recommended for your application then the failure was most likely not the fluid. I've seen posts like this for just about every fluid you can imagine and it's almost always not the fluid (except when you top up your oil with coolant or windshield washer fluid).

If the fluid is to blame then you have a case against Aisin and I'm sure they would warrant the transmission replacement. I could say the same thing about any number of CVT fluids in regards to Nissan CVT failures but the fault is in Nissans service recommendations and the firmware of the TCU, not the fluid or the CVT itself.

 

[martinq]

I know @MolaKule has some very interesting posts about all the functions of transmission fluid. From my simple understanding if it is synthetic it is usually(but not always) on average better at resisting degradation (shear and temperature). Then the additive package helps preserve the the fluid, reduces transmission wear, and does other functions as well.

With those thoughts l was hoping to get some insight for fluids that would be best fit the given parameters.

OEM has its share of problems too. I have read the Honda Z1 fluid broke down very quickly.
I am guessing there might be a few hundred people in the world that have this exact knowledge. I am hoping a few are on the forum.

I know the simplest answer is to just increase the service interval frequency with oem fluid but that seems less than ideal.

I am very much about optimization. For example l have been given compelling arguments for engine air filters and oil filters. I have not found the same understanding for transmission fluid yet.

You are almost certainly correct that this a vibe thing but sometimes we can tease out useful insights kicking the ball around.

If you are interested in optimization then get out your calendar and spreadsheet and start documenting and testing your fluids. There is no "best" fluid, only a fluid that suits your application better than others. The key here is, YOUR APPLICATION. You need to do the testing if you really want to optimize.

Or you can take the easy way out and either:
1. over service (this adds expense in wasted fluids, time, money but is most likely safe)
2. follow the manual (should be safe but you need to understand the bias of who wrote the manual)
3. listen to others (confusing and many of them do not understand what they're saying, they just like saying it and having other listen to them)

 

[martinq]

I have a KIA Sedona(SP III) with about 220k miles and going strong. In order to change the ATF filter you have to remove the Transmission from the car. Needless to say it has never been changed. It does have a magnetic drain plug. I purchased it at 190k. The original owner took it to a quick oil place for service and it appears he was good about not putting things off. Who know what they used? I assume something like MAX Life ATF that covers a lot of specs. But I am only guessing. I looked at some KIA message boards and people have attested to MAX life working well in KIA's. So, I took their experience and have been using that with about 15k intervals. No issues at all. I assume SP4 is backward compatible and just maybe a little better in some way than SP 3? In other words it is designed to work on SP 3 and SP2?

I haven't studied Kia's documentation but that's generally how it goes. They either discovered an issue with SP2/3 and had it corrected or they're just following the herd and going with the ATF-of-the-day from their blender and fluid developers. Nissan did the same thing with their CVT fluid but in all cases they need to word their documentation carefully to not endanger themselves to legal action.

When it comes to Multi-ATF from established and trusted companies, consider this, they are publicly documenting that their product is certified for, or suitable for these dozens / hundreds of applications from just about every mfg on the planet. How can they do this and "get away with it" if it was not actually true? How can Nissan / GM / Toyota / etc face multiple class-action lawsuits for their faults and yet Valvoline / Castrol / Amsoil / etc do not? Maybe it's because CVTF / ATF have fairly straight-forward lubrication needs and most of them are extremely similar and have similar requirements.

The typical consumer transmission is not on the razor edge of performance / failure, it is a mass produced commodity and so is the fluid that it needs to function properly.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Martinq, I had chucked the Aisin DW-1 receipt prior to the spill and fill on my 13' CRV. The 1 qt bottles did say it was " compatible" to Honda OEM DW-1, so I thought it would be fine to use. There must be some difference to it IMO. Whatever, it was years ago, and the bad memory is fading. Now I'm just happy to have over 100K on the re-man Honda transmission. Shifts like new, and no leaks -)...I'll just keep doing my 15K spill and fills with OE Honda DW-1....I did the same 15K spill & fills using Honda DW-1, except the ONE time I went with Aisin ATF. I won't be doing that again.

 

[MolaKule]

I would say the top three ATF fluids are HPL, Amsoil, and Redline's series.

 

[martinq]

Martinq, I had chucked the Aisin DW-1 receipt prior to the spill and fill on my 13' CRV. The 1 qt bottles did say it was " compatible" to Honda OEM DW-1, so I thought it would be fine to use. There must be some difference to it IMO. Whatever, it was years ago, and the bad memory is fading. Now I'm just happy to have over 100K on the re-man Honda transmission. Shifts like new, and no leaks -)...I'll just keep doing my 15K spill and fills with OE Honda DW-1....I did the same 15K spill & fills using Honda DW-1, except the ONE time I went with Aisin ATF. I won't be doing that again.

Again, there's no harm in using a compatible fluid and in most cases I would expect it to be superior to OEM fluid.

Much more important than the fluid is cleaning the pan & magnets. Have you had the pan off yet?

 

[CleanSump]

The failures being ascribed to a particular brand of fluid are akin to the don't change your transmission fluid or it will fail stories. Most people who make a change do it because they are starting to have issues and think the fluid change will fix it. Then post X brand killed my transmission or don't change your fluid it will kill your transmission. No, the old dirt wasn't holding you transmission together or making the clutches grab better. The transmission already had issues.
About the only place people post I changed my fluid and I'm happy are on BITOG.

 

[RobbS]

If longevity is objective, then OEM is king every 30k miles.

 

[nthach]

IME, the aftermarket fluids I’ve had luck with are Castrol IMV and MaxLife. But with the latter unless it’s going into something that doesn’t care about viscosity, I noticed the shifts feel a bit different in a good way(more positive in a Nissan 4/5-speed and Subaru 4EAT) or meh(Toyota U151E). But in the things I’ve used it in, it seems to work OK - I’m on the lookout for shudder/flare/slip.

But in many cases, OE/licensed(like GM/Ford/Mopar has CQA test and approve Dexron/Mercon/ATF+4 fluids, I think Allison does as well) changed at reasonable intervals goes a long way for keeping a transmission alive.

 

[Wheel366]

I've had 2 spill and fills done on the CRV with AMSOIL Signature Series, both when the MM told me to. I'm sure I'm coming up on another one soon. Car has 181k and both were done after the warranty was up. No issues to report.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I'm going to try Amsoil in my CVT this year but I must admit I'm a bit nervous not using OEM with all the warnings. I've heard nothing but good.

My Honda has grown up on Amsoil CVT fluid, I have had zero problems. Car has 220,000 miles on it.

I am afraid to use OEM Honda fluid

 

[kschachn]

If longevity is objective, then OEM is king every 30k miles.

In what way? I would not agree with that, there are aftermarket fluids better than the OEM. Look at the list @MolaKule posted above.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Again, there's no harm in using a compatible fluid and in most cases I would expect it to be superior to OEM fluid.

Much more important than the fluid is cleaning the pan & magnets. Have you had the pan off yet?

Been down this road in a separate thread on BITOG quite awhile ago. If I remember correctly, Critic had said there was a difference between Aisin DW-1 and Honda OEM DW-1. Maybe some additives were not in the Aisin brand, not sure. Also, this transmission has no pan. Has a magnetic plug with an exterior inline filter which I always changed @ 15K with the ATF. Purchased this CRV brand new, and has been on a 5K OCI with a 15K transmission service. I'll stick with the Honda OEM DW-1 fluid. Engine oil is a different story. I've thrown many different brands of full synthetic 0W20 into it, without any issues, along with a Honda OEM oil filter.

 

[ctechbob]

Been down this road in a separate thread on BITOG quite awhile ago. If I remember correctly, Critic had said there was a difference between Aisin DW-1 and Honda OEM DW-1. Maybe some additives were not in the Aisin brand, not sure. Also, this transmission has no pan. Has a magnetic plug with an exterior inline filter which I always changed @ 15K with the ATF. Purchased this CRV brand new, and has been on a 5K OCI with a 15K transmission service. I'll stick with the Honda OEM DW-1 fluid. Engine oil is a different story. I've thrown many different brands of full synthetic 0W20 into it, without any issues, along with a Honda OEM oil filter.

There is no aftermarket fluid that has the same makeup as the 'Real' Z1/DW1. Both of those fluids are heavy in particular additives that the aftermarkets are not.

There's a thread pinned at the top of this forum with the discussion.

If one is looking for a fluid that 'matches' the OEM, there's only 1. The OEM fluid.

There are many hundreds of users here that have used aftermarket fluids in their Honda's quite successfully, and some that haven't. Personally I find Maxlife with Lubegard Platinum to give me the best balance between aftermarket fluids (which can be slightly harsh in my V6 5 speeds) and DW1.

As far as what is 'better'? Take your pick. Premium fluids on a long change interval, or commodity fluids changed more often.

Thread 'Honda/Multi-Vehicle ATF Comparison Chart'

Jan 26, 2020

I thought this would be helpful just for comparison sake. I'd love to add more data to this, perhaps Castrol Import Forumula, Beck Arnley Z1, and the newer Blue bottle Valvoline Import formula (non hi-mi formula)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QHBh4pMGYzeo2On06upZpYeTgwD9falcI8Vm8GXcK4U/edit?usp=sharing

If you have VOA data to add to this, message me about editing permission (assuming you know how to use google docs) or just post the data and I'll add it.

• jayjr1105
• Replies: 223
• Forum: ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S

• 
• 

 

[50yr Street Mech]

^ This. Thank you ctechbob for verifying and posting the thread -)

 

[skaughtz]

I had a few drinks and decided to reach out to Valvoline about how MaxLife could apply to such a wide range of different transmissions. I feel that the email possesses the eloquence of a poet:

"Hello,

First, I am a big fan of Valvoline's products. All three of my vehicles use Valvoline Restore and Protect for engine oil and my 2007 Camry has been running on MaxLife ATF for 100k+ miles and the transmission still runs as well as new. So kudos for making great products.

My question for you stems from the endless online forum discussions regarding if it is safe/wise to use aftermarket ATF vs. OEM in all applications. MaxLife ATF is typically highly regarded and claims to be compatible with a very, very broad range of various manufacturers and transmissions. You no doubt have the list of how many that is. My question for you is how can this be possible when some of the transmissions listed are so vastly different from each other?

A good example would be from my own vehicles. My 2007 Toyota Camry LE has a 5-speed U250E transmission that specifies Toyota WS ATF. My 2018 Honda Pilot Touring has a 9-speed ZF 9HP-48 transmission that specifies Honda ATF-Type 3.1 (which is just rebranded ZF Lifeguard 9). Those two transmissions specify ATF that have very different characteristics across the board, from fluid hydrodynamic profiles to viscosities (the ZF9 was designed around a much lower viscosity fluid, for instance), yet MaxLife ATF applies to both. So, how can that be?

My best guess is one of two scenarios. 1) The industry secret is that there is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, and the OEM marketing is just a worthwhile revenue stream to continue bottling under OEM labels. 2) There is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, for a while at least, but the diversion from OEM specified fluid properties will lead to increased wear and failure X miles into the future, which is typically longer than your Average Joe will ever own the vehicle.

As someone who likes to keep and maintain his vehicles forever, I would really appreciate it if you could shed some technical light on this seemingly never-ending conundrum.

Thank you, and sorry for the long email."

What I got back from them was less than satisfying:

"Valvoline MaxLife ATF covers broad applications—covering 95% of US light-duty vehicles—by utilizing a full synthetic base stock blended with a versatile, high-performance additive package.

It combines specialized seal conditioners, long-life friction modifiers, and advanced anti-wear agents, allowing it to meet the requirements of various manufacturers (Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc.) and both conventional and CVT transmissions.

The Advanced friction modifiers provide superior anti-shudder performance and consistent shifting across different clutch materials and technologies, spanning from older DEXRON/MERCON requirements to modern low-viscosity fluids.

The synthetic base provides superior thermal stability and flow properties at high and low temperatures compared to conventional fluids, ensuring performance in diverse operating conditions and is designed to be compatible with many specific OEM specifications (e.g., Toyota T-IV/WS, Honda Z1/CVT, Ford MERCON LV, etc.) and can be safely mixed with other fluids.

Thank you and have a great day.

Valvoline Product Support"

All of which leads me to believe that it probably doesn't matter what ATF you use as long as you keep it clean. Because the OEM vs. Aftermarket debate will continue forever.

But I am still going to use OEM in Hondas...

 

[Egg_Head]

I had a few drinks and decided to reach out to Valvoline about how MaxLife could apply to such a wide range of different transmissions. I feel that the email possesses the eloquence of a poet:

"Hello,

First, I am a big fan of Valvoline's products. All three of my vehicles use Valvoline Restore and Protect for engine oil and my 2007 Camry has been running on MaxLife ATF for 100k+ miles and the transmission still runs as well as new. So kudos for making great products.

My question for you stems from the endless online forum discussions regarding if it is safe/wise to use aftermarket ATF vs. OEM in all applications. MaxLife ATF is typically highly regarded and claims to be compatible with a very, very broad range of various manufacturers and transmissions. You no doubt have the list of how many that is. My question for you is how can this be possible when some of the transmissions listed are so vastly different from each other?

A good example would be from my own vehicles. My 2007 Toyota Camry LE has a 5-speed U250E transmission that specifies Toyota WS ATF. My 2018 Honda Pilot Touring has a 9-speed ZF 9HP-48 transmission that specifies Honda ATF-Type 3.1 (which is just rebranded ZF Lifeguard 9). Those two transmissions specify ATF that have very different characteristics across the board, from fluid hydrodynamic profiles to viscosities (the ZF9 was designed around a much lower viscosity fluid, for instance), yet MaxLife ATF applies to both. So, how can that be?

My best guess is one of two scenarios. 1) The industry secret is that there is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, and the OEM marketing is just a worthwhile revenue stream to continue bottling under OEM labels. 2) There is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, for a while at least, but the diversion from OEM specified fluid properties will lead to increased wear and failure X miles into the future, which is typically longer than your Average Joe will ever own the vehicle.

As someone who likes to keep and maintain his vehicles forever, I would really appreciate it if you could shed some technical light on this seemingly never-ending conundrum.

Thank you, and sorry for the long email."

What I got back from them was less than satisfying:

"Valvoline MaxLife ATF covers broad applications—covering 95% of US light-duty vehicles—by utilizing a full synthetic base stock blended with a versatile, high-performance additive package.

It combines specialized seal conditioners, long-life friction modifiers, and advanced anti-wear agents, allowing it to meet the requirements of various manufacturers (Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc.) and both conventional and CVT transmissions.

The Advanced friction modifiers provide superior anti-shudder performance and consistent shifting across different clutch materials and technologies, spanning from older DEXRON/MERCON requirements to modern low-viscosity fluids.

The synthetic base provides superior thermal stability and flow properties at high and low temperatures compared to conventional fluids, ensuring performance in diverse operating conditions and is designed to be compatible with many specific OEM specifications (e.g., Toyota T-IV/WS, Honda Z1/CVT, Ford MERCON LV, etc.) and can be safely mixed with other fluids.

Thank you and have a great day.

Valvoline Product Support"

All of which leads me to believe that it probably doesn't matter what ATF you use as long as you keep it clean. Because the OEM vs. Aftermarket debate will continue forever.

But I am still going to use OEM in Hondas...

Keep drinking and don't worry about it.

 

[amateurbob]

I had a few drinks and decided to reach out to Valvoline about how MaxLife could apply to such a wide range of different transmissions. I feel that the email possesses the eloquence of a poet:

"Hello,

First, I am a big fan of Valvoline's products. All three of my vehicles use Valvoline Restore and Protect for engine oil and my 2007 Camry has been running on MaxLife ATF for 100k+ miles and the transmission still runs as well as new. So kudos for making great products.

My question for you stems from the endless online forum discussions regarding if it is safe/wise to use aftermarket ATF vs. OEM in all applications. MaxLife ATF is typically highly regarded and claims to be compatible with a very, very broad range of various manufacturers and transmissions. You no doubt have the list of how many that is. My question for you is how can this be possible when some of the transmissions listed are so vastly different from each other?

A good example would be from my own vehicles. My 2007 Toyota Camry LE has a 5-speed U250E transmission that specifies Toyota WS ATF. My 2018 Honda Pilot Touring has a 9-speed ZF 9HP-48 transmission that specifies Honda ATF-Type 3.1 (which is just rebranded ZF Lifeguard 9). Those two transmissions specify ATF that have very different characteristics across the board, from fluid hydrodynamic profiles to viscosities (the ZF9 was designed around a much lower viscosity fluid, for instance), yet MaxLife ATF applies to both. So, how can that be?

My best guess is one of two scenarios. 1) The industry secret is that there is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, and the OEM marketing is just a worthwhile revenue stream to continue bottling under OEM labels. 2) There is a range of fluid properties in which most transmissions on the market will operate just fine in, for a while at least, but the diversion from OEM specified fluid properties will lead to increased wear and failure X miles into the future, which is typically longer than your Average Joe will ever own the vehicle.

As someone who likes to keep and maintain his vehicles forever, I would really appreciate it if you could shed some technical light on this seemingly never-ending conundrum.

Thank you, and sorry for the long email."

What I got back from them was less than satisfying:

"Valvoline MaxLife ATF covers broad applications—covering 95% of US light-duty vehicles—by utilizing a full synthetic base stock blended with a versatile, high-performance additive package.

It combines specialized seal conditioners, long-life friction modifiers, and advanced anti-wear agents, allowing it to meet the requirements of various manufacturers (Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc.) and both conventional and CVT transmissions.

The Advanced friction modifiers provide superior anti-shudder performance and consistent shifting across different clutch materials and technologies, spanning from older DEXRON/MERCON requirements to modern low-viscosity fluids.

The synthetic base provides superior thermal stability and flow properties at high and low temperatures compared to conventional fluids, ensuring performance in diverse operating conditions and is designed to be compatible with many specific OEM specifications (e.g., Toyota T-IV/WS, Honda Z1/CVT, Ford MERCON LV, etc.) and can be safely mixed with other fluids.

Thank you and have a great day.

Valvoline Product Support"

All of which leads me to believe that it probably doesn't matter what ATF you use as long as you keep it clean. Because the OEM vs. Aftermarket debate will continue forever.

But I am still going to use OEM in Hondas...

Thanks for the effort!