Quick Lubes Decry VW Oil Tie-in

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This has been a huge source of debate. My understanding is that in the new engine design, in addition to the increase in pressure, they also reduced the surface area of the cam lobe. The shear forces that are exerted on the cam where breaking down the polymers. Given this information, one would assume that the new spec oil has been enhanced to give the polymers more strength or better resistance to shearing forces. There has been a lot of independent testing, some of it very involved, but no definitive determination has been made by the common public.
At my service appointment on Tuesday, they accidentally put a BMW 10w50 oil (Castrol, of course) in my TDI but I was standing right there to catch the mistake. The service manager commented that the 10w50 was a better oil but they have to follow VW specs. It may be a better oil but I don't think I've ever seen a diesel BMW. People in the diesel community are always shocked to hear about the injection pressures so I'm assuming that it's a pretty significant change.
There may also be different soot loading characteristics in the new oil. Clogged EGR's have plagued VW diesels for many years. The new engine design is supposed to eliminate EGR clogging but time will have to tell on that one.
 
In the fine print at the bottom it says "...relates only to products supplied in Europe and former Soviet Union"

There was a signature campaign to get Mobil to sell there 505.01 oil in the US but I haven't heard anything else about it.

In my opinion, Euro diesels are the best kept secret in the US. I get double the mileage my Nissan was getting and I'm still paying 42% less to operate my diesel. Even at 90 mph I still get 37 mpg's. But until the new Low sulfur standards are in place our diesel quality is going to suck and cause people a lot of trouble with their diesels. Until US Euro Diesel sales improve, there is not much incentive for Oil Manufactures to invest in the testing process to certify it's oil for such a small niche of vehicles.
 
quote:
My understanding is that in the new engine design, in addition to the increase in pressure, they also reduced the surface area of the cam lobe. The shear forces that are exerted on the cam where breaking down the polymers. Given this information, one would assume that the new spec oil has been enhanced to give the polymers more strength or better resistance to shearing forces.
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The goal in a Pumpe Düse Diesel engine is to reduce the cam lobe wear to virtually zero, as the PD depends on all parts within the diesel injection system functioning within extremely tight tolerances. We still don't know what exactly makes VW501.01 so special, though.
 
TDI Guy: you have to ask how many engineers would pilot a desk in a service area, be a minion to the dealer principal, and get peanuts! Not many. Not much interest in oil, more in cash flow. BTW, EGR clogging not common where there is ULSD.
 
I have this particular TDI. Yes VW requires 505.01 oil and follows it by saying "Failure to use the prescribed oil may result in engine failure and death." They redesigned this engine to have more power, sooner, and better cold starts. To achieve this, they had to create a 20,000 psi injection pressure. The previous oil (Castrol Syntec) could not withstand the shearing forces of the new engine so they came out with the new spec.

Now to dispell some misinformation;
Amsoil makes an oil for this spec, as well as Elf and a few other highly specialized lubricant companies.

There are nearly 50 companies in Europe distributing oils that meet this spec (where diesels account for nearly half the cars on the road).

Mobil 1 (USA), Delvac, Rotella do not meet this spec.
Mobil 1 (EU) does meet this spec.

I bought a quart of Castrol 505.01 from my dealer 3 days ago for $6.75. On the front of the bottle it says "Specifcally for the TDI" While that is expensive, it's not much more expensive than Castrol Syntec.

The service manager commented that VW got over zealous with their 10,000 mile maintenance interval and is now replacing a lot of engines that just couldn't take it (mostly Passats). Because of this, VW has become very stingy about it's warranty. You must be able to document that you serviced your vehicle every 10,000 miles. 10,001 does not count, because you went beyond the reccomended service interval and voided your warranty.

It does seem like price fixing though. The vehicles require Castrol 505.01, Castrol is owned by British Petroleum (BP) which has headquarters in Germany...how convenient. The problem is that there are a couple of companies in the US that carry oils that meet this spec. Last I heard, you could get it from California for about $7.50 a quart. So the owner has an alternative to the product sold at the dealer, therefor, it's not price fixing.
 
quote:
Originally posted by TDI Guy:
There was a signature campaign to get Mobil to sell there 505.01 oil in the US but I haven't heard anything else about it.

In my opinion, Euro diesels are the best kept secret in the US. I get double the mileage my Nissan was getting and I'm still paying 42% less to operate my diesel. Even at 90 mph I still get 37 mpg's. But until the new Low sulfur standards are in place our diesel quality is going to suck and cause people a lot of trouble with their diesels.
Click to expand...
I would not hold my breath for Mobil 505.01 oil in the US through official channels. Diesel automobile sales have been low in the US (as they are in European countries which do not sell cheap diesel fuel) and oil companies have lost money on catering to them.

New diesel cars are effectively outlawed in
California. If the companies working on the problems don't come up with some fixes, they'll be outlawed in the other 49 states due to nitrous oxide and particulate emissions. Bosch claims it has a metal particulate trap that will last 120,000 miles, but it isn't in production.

Removing sulphur from diesel fuel (American diesel is 140 ppm sulphur by weight in California and up to 340 ppm elsewhere in the US, but in Europe sulphur levels are as low as 10 ppm) won't
happen until 2006.

And the fixes aren't cheap, which means diesels
immediately get less competitive with alternate fuel, hybrid, and ULE gasoline vehicles.

Diesel in the U.S. has always been the "next big thing" and never has been.

I don't expect diesel to ever make much of a dent in the American automobile market.
 
Mickey_M said "....New diesel cars are effectively outlawed in California.....I don't expect diesel to ever make much of a dent in the American automobile market. "

VW should have expected problems if they relied upon a special oil for reliability in the US market. Cars are typically expected to perform like household appliances, where they working as long you don't wreck them.

I have an 'evil CA' diesel engine in my 2003 Dodge truck, which is different from other models as it is set up to run cooler in order to generate lower nitrogen exhaust products. In doing so it seems to generate more soot, so go figure. The current Dodge diesels are 50 state certified, with a lot higher output. From what I understand I should get better long term durability, but that's a really boring performance parameter :^)

I agree about diesels not ever doing well in the US. A neighbor bought a Ford crew cab pickup with a large block gas engine, so they wouldn't have to put up with a smelly, noisy diesel engine. He commented that on vacation with a camper he would actually watch the gas gauge drop on steep grades in the mountains, and worried about getting to a gas station in time. A coworker gets 10 mpg in her Ford crew cab gasser, and when towing their large boat gets 2mpg. The neighbor got rid of his last truck at about 100k miles as it was pretty much shot. But they're glad they don't have to put up with a smelly, noisy diesel.
 
Diesel sales share in UK with diesel more expensive than gas: 33% and rising. Higher, =>50%, in "executive" class. Small gas engined cars get pretty good economy, and their buyers are generally low-mileage, uninterested. Passat TDI to gas:7 to1.
 
quote:
Originally posted by nortones2:
Diesel sales share in UK with diesel more expensive than gas: 33% and rising.
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The Federal Highway Administration tracks gasoline and diesel prices each year in Japan, France, Germany, Sweden, the UK, Canada, Mexico, and the United States. Checking the 99-2002 figures, I see that diesel is cheaper in the UK than gasoline over the entire period:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohim/hs02/pdf/in56.pdf

The figures for 1978–2000 are included in Center for Transportation Analysis' TRANSPORTATION ENERGY DATA BOOK: EDITION 21 (it's a slow load of 267 pages):

http://cta.ornl.gov/cta/Publications/pdf/ORNL-6966.pdf

Patrick Bedard at Car and Driver Magazine summed in up in the September issue:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8427&page_number=1

"We hear of diesel's great popularity in Europe. Don't be misled. Those folks don't love diesels any more than we do. It's the fuel cost, stupid. Although diesel fuel prices in the U.S. have been well above gas prices over most of the past few decades (they happen to be lower now), many European countries have tax incentives for diesel fuel. As a result, in April 2004, diesel cost 41 percent less than gasoline in Poland, 34 percent less in Belgium, and 21 percent less in Germany and Italy. So of course diesel cars are popular where fuel is cheap."

There was a bump in diesel popularity in the U.S. in the mid-70s to early 80s due to perceived high fuel prices and shortages. Most people did not buy another after experiencing Doctor Rudolf Diesel's "rational heat engine", the smell, the noise, the difficulty finding fuel, the fun in cold weather, and the maintainence expenses which offset the slight fuel price advantage.
 
Mickey_M said "There was a bump in diesel popularity in the U.S. in the mid-70s to early 80s due to perceived high fuel prices and shortages. Most people did not buy another after experiencing Doctor Rudolf Diesel's "rational heat engine", the smell, the noise, the difficulty finding fuel, the fun in cold weather, and the maintainence expenses which offset the slight fuel price advantage. "

What really turned people off were the low powered non-turbos that were imported, and the horrendous offerings from GM. I was worried that the family wouldn't like the truck that we have as it's a 3/4 ton diesel, but they've ended up much preferring it over either car on trips. It's reasonably quiet, sounding about what you get after spending lots of money on a fancy exhaust system. I've had more than one person just move into my line, not knowing that I was there, so it isn't that noisy. It has a block heater so I can plug it in if desired, but Cummins has designed it well enough that people report that it starts fine down to something -30F to -40F. It's evidently THE truck to have in Alaska and it seems to be popular in Canada as well. I get 17 mpg to 18 mpg in town, compared to either Taurus which gets 18mpg to 20 mpg. On the highway I typically get 19 mpg, I broke 20 mpg this last summer, and would expect to get 22 mpg or so in the flatlands. In a medium duty application it has an average life of 350k miles, and I'm expecting 500k miles as it's not uncommon. Not bad for a 3/4 ton 4x4 quad cab pickup.

I will definately look at a diesel car when we need to replace one.
 
I agree with you Jelly. The argument I have heard is if the camshaft gets any wear at all it will throw off the injection timing or injection pressures will decrease. Imagine a couple hundred thousand miles with absolutely no wear on the cam. Hard to imagine with any oil.

I think the 505.01 must be 4.5 HTHS. HDEO's are 4.3 Not much but may make a difference.
 
Mickey: does the reported diesel cost in the first table include all tax? Diesel at the pumps in the UK is usually marginally higher in price than gas, and it is currently. Higher octane (97 or 98 RON) is admittedly higher in price than diesel, but the market share is small. A link to AA giving current prices: http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/
 
quote:
Originally posted by nortones2:
Mickey: does the reported diesel cost in the first table include all tax? Diesel at the pumps in the UK is usually marginally higher in price than gas, and it is currently. Higher octane (97 or 98 RON) is admittedly higher in price than diesel, but the market share is small. A link to AA giving current prices: http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/
Click to expand...
Looking at the website I see that the price differential was less in January. I am assuming that if the website had data back to 2000 we'd find that diesel moved in relative price somewhere in the 2000-2002 period to today from lower to higher.

In 2000 in the EU leaded four star petrol was withdrawn from sale. I am assuming that this changed the relative prices of available fuels. Much the same thing happened in the U.S. as fuel supplies were adjusted among the remaining refiners (diesel, like leaded petrol, can be produced by smaller refiners that can't make unleaded petrol).
 
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