Questions about cleaning sludge

[wallyuwl]

One of my vehicles has about 112k miles on it. Runs fine, no consumption, it is clean under the oil cap (I can't see any of the valves or anything, but what I can see shows no signs of sludge - a bit of varnish, though).

As a preventative measure I plan on running this OCI short (about 3k compared to the normal 6k - I use MaxLife and almost all hwy driving on this vehicle), and putting in some MMO for the final 1000k of the OCI. I will follow this up with a regular 6k OCI using Quaker State Ultimate Durability.

Two questions:

1) The oil is full (and very clean for having 2k on it). Can I add a bottle of MMO without worries, or should I take out some oil first so I don't overfill the crank case? It is a Toyota 1.8L engine that holds 4.2L oil to get to the full mark.

2) Should I change out the oil filter (currently a Fram Tough Guard) before putting in the MMO?

Any answers or other suggestions appreciated.

 

[chubbs1]

On the overfilling, I personally don't like to have too high of a level of oil (i'd rather a little low). Another whole quart of MMO would make me nervous, if you are puttin in half of a quart...ehh I would be able to sleep at night. Now if you change the filter and it has a good ADBV on it it should let out enough oil to be OK to put the full quart of MMO in. It is a pretty mild cleaner but it can't hurt to change the filter because it may be getting some extra 'junk' its way. Or you could finish this OCI off at 3k and add MMO from there, it is a mild cleaner; its not Seafoam or KREEN, so I don't think you will be getting any chunks of sludge dislodged.

Matt

 

[mechtech2]

I'd take some oil out first.
Why? Because if you are going to use MMO in the crankcase, give it a good opportunity to do it's thing.

Use a whole qt.

 

[Shannow]

A quart over isn't going to be a problem, unless you are doing slalom work or something like that.

 

[Scienceman]

Don't ever overfill your engine!

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
One of my vehicles has about 112k miles on it. Runs fine, no consumption, it is clean under the oil cap (I can't see any of the valves or anything, but what I can see shows no signs of sludge - a bit of varnish, though).

As a preventative measure I plan on running this OCI short (about 3k compared to the normal 6k - I use MaxLife and almost all hwy driving on this vehicle), and putting in some MMO for the final 1000k of the OCI. I will follow this up with a regular 6k OCI using Quaker State Ultimate Durability.

Two questions:

1) The oil is full (and very clean for having 2k on it). Can I add a bottle of MMO without worries, or should I take out some oil first so I don't overfill the crank case? It is a Toyota 1.8L engine that holds 4.2L oil to get to the full mark.

2) Should I change out the oil filter (currently a Fram Tough Guard) before putting in the MMO?

Any answers or other suggestions appreciated.


I read this post, I think here is a case where a person has a perfectly good engine, and now he's going to play a little roulette just to spin the wheel.

Marvel makes no promises that the use of their product in your crankcase won't result in bad happening to your engine, and problems developing where none existed before. They do make that promise in the fuel though. Think about that for a moment.

MMO contains solvent. Solvent can't tell sludge from a gasket or a seal. MMO also has a much lower viscosity than whatever oil you're using now, therefore it will thin it out. If your oil is not thick enough, then you're going to have some needless wear you could have avoided.

I like MMO. I use MMO. It has a very particular application for me though, and even then I'm using less than half a quart and in lower temps where its thinning will be less pronounced.

There is no need to go chasing phantoms by using solvents unnecessarily. If you really want to put something in it that will be beneficial, run a tank of Redline, Regane, or any other PEA based fuel system cleaner.

There is nothing wrong with varnish and it is not an indication of anything at all. Nor is it harmful.

-Spyder

 

[lipadj46]

Words of wisdom from the guy who puts mmo and MoS2 in his oil, do as I say not as I do!

I don't think any harm will come out of one mmo use, it may make things a bit cleaner, it may swell a seal and cause an oil leak who can say? There is always a risk when you experiment but mmo is fairly harmless stuff.

 

[mechtech2]

!

 

[mechtech2]

A qt over is too much. Don't do it if you have the option not to.
And slalom driving is when you WOULD possibly want to do this.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Words of wisdom from the guy who puts mmo and MoS2 in his oil, do as I say not as I do!

I don't think any harm will come out of one mmo use, it may make things a bit cleaner, it may swell a seal and cause an oil leak who can say? There is always a risk when you experiment but mmo is fairly harmless stuff.


MMO is in my oil not because of varnish, but because of sludge build up due to a PCV problem that was worsened by the driving and maintenance habits of the previous owner.

I am also using 12 oz. in the same size sump, which is a lot less than a quart.

The 12 oz. was not added, or even considered as an addition, to an already full sump. Let alone a whole quart of it.

Finally, mos2 is completely irrelevant to anything in this thread.

So no, this is not a case of 'do as I say but not as I do.'

-Spyder

 

[demarpaint]

A qt overfilled IMO is a lot. I'd drain off some oil first as mechtech2 said earlier. MMO is not going to damage your engine, overfilling it might. Then MMO gets blamed. JMO

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46


I don't think any harm will come out of one mmo use, it may make things a bit cleaner, it may swell a seal and cause an oil leak who can say? There is always a risk when you experiment but mmo is fairly harmless stuff.


And this is why I recommended against it. What can be said for sure is, given he's dealing with varnish, and not sludge (do you not understand the difference) which is harmless, why use any product that poses any chance of creating problems where none exist.

I use it because there is a real problem it has shown itself to be effective in dealing with, and its a safe alternative to other options I considered such as flushing. The comparatively small amount of MMO I use has something to chew on other than gaskets and seals.

And even when I chose it to clean out the sludge (and not varnish which doesn't need something like MMO), I used the amount that would yield the weakest concentration within Marvel's recommended range (which starts at 10% and is the concentration I'm using).

The second M does not mean MIRACLE. Its not going to take a problem free engine and somehow improve upon it when there's nothing for its solvency to do, other than penetrate gaskets and seals. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

This is common sense advice.

-Spyder

 

[wallyuwl]

Thanks for the advice. I emptied a quart from the sump, then put in a quart of MMO. Hopefully a quart of MMO ran for 1000 miles every 110k miles won't hurt anything. I thought of going ARx, but that is expensive for there not being a known problem. I might do ARx in a couple years in the crank case and transmission prior to when the transmission fluid needs to get changed next. I plan to run the MMO for about 1000-1200 miles, then do an oil change with Quaker State Ultimate Durability.

 

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7

And this is why I recommended against it. What can be said for sure is, given he's dealing with varnish, and not sludge (do you not understand the difference) which is harmless, why use any product that poses any chance of creating problems where none exist.


Sounds like the OP is OK with the small risk he is taking. Maybe he will see some benefit if the ring packs are dirty or maybe he will clog his oil take up screen and kill his engine. At least we got our daily dose of BITOG finger wagging out of the way.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: Spyder7

And this is why I recommended against it. What can be said for sure is, given he's dealing with varnish, and not sludge (do you not understand the difference) which is harmless, why use any product that poses any chance of creating problems where none exist.


Sounds like the OP is OK with the small risk he is taking. Maybe he will see some benefit if the ring packs are dirty or maybe he will clog his oil take up screen and kill his engine. At least we got our daily dose of BITOG finger wagging out of the way.


The 1000 mile interval is fine (minimal risk), provided the thinning effect is accounted for along with possible sheer (independent of MMO).

I rarely recommend MMO in oil because the manufacturer does not provide the same statement regarding its safe use in oil that they provide in fuel. I've looked at its PDS and MSDS and the solvents it contains are not things to be tossed into the crankcase just for the sake of doing so.

Between the sheering that can take place over an OCI, which will thin an oil on its own, combined with the thinning from a full dose of MMO, there is real potential for the oil to lose the needed viscosity to adequately lubricate, with wear that could have been avoided being the consequence. Nothing in a bottle is going to undo that wear.

Its a useful product, but given what it is and the possibility for unintended side effects, I put it in the category of useful things for specific problems, where one should know in advance what they are getting into rather than blindly following the advice of others (no matter how well intentioned the advice).

As my use of it is very different from the OPs (the similarity beginning and ending with it being in the crankcase), a 'do as I say not as I do' remark was totally unwarranted, and using mos2 to as part of your point is a classic strawman when it has nothing to do with this thread, and has nothing in common with MMO.

-Spyder

 

[demarpaint]

I'm just wondering Spyder, how long have you been using MMO? If you are a used oil analysis believer check out some of the used oil analysis reports with the addition of MMO in the oil, they were quite good. In fact the only thing that took a slight hit was the TBN, but if you are using it to clean an engine then extended drains while cleaning aren't advised anyway.

I've actually seen the insides of engines that were run with MMO for every OCI. They were spotless one of which had close to 200K miles on it and was opened up to change a VC gasket. Compression was near perfect and it didn't burn a drop of oil. I don't think it does any damage at all to an engine, at least in my nearly 4 decades of using it. But I don't run a qt for each and every OCI. My college buddy does and has been since the mid 1970's, IIRC his dad was doing decades before that, and still does.

BTW I think MMO and MoS2 is a great combo. YMMV

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I'm just wondering Spyder, how long have you been using MMO? If you are a used oil analysis believer check out some of the used oil analysis reports with the addition of MMO in the oil, they were quite good. In fact the only thing that took a slight hit was the TBN, but if you are using it to clean an engine then extended drains while cleaning aren't advised anyway.

I've actually seen the insides of engines that were run with MMO for every OCI. They were spotless one of which had close to 200K miles on it and was opened up to change a VC gasket. Compression was near perfect and it didn't burn a drop of oil. I don't think it does any damage at all to an engine, at least in my nearly 4 decades of using it. But I don't run a qt for each and every OCI. My college buddy does and has been since the mid 1970's, IIRC his dad was doing decades before that, and still does.

BTW I think MMO and MoS2 is a great combo. YMMV


I'm 3,000 km into this OCI, MMO was added 1,000 km ago. MMO started to be introduced into the fuel at the same time, at an average 4 ounce dose. This is my last MMO tank for awhile before I switch back to tc-w3. Length of this MMO run is still undecided.

I fluctuate between adding the remaining 8 ounces I have to the original 12 at the 4,000 km mark and doing another OC minus the MMO at 5,000 km, to letting it go in the concentration its at until spring without adding any more (which will put about 8,000 km on the oil and 6,000 km on the MMO).

It hasn't done any harm and I don't expect it to whichever route I go. Added in a 10% concentration to this oil, thinning is minimal and this synthetic is more sheer resistant than the typical Supertech or Pennzoil conventional suggestion it be added to, so dropping out of grade isn't a concern either.

It has enough sludge to eat through that I'm not worried about any compromise to seals or gaskets. As I couldn't get it OTC that left me a lot of time to research and verify it would be safe to use in this application.

Its a good product. I just think its one that, due to its solvency and thinning effect, requires some thought before its poured in, and that caveats do apply. That's where I differ from many of my MMO brethren

BTW I will likely continue using it for one season a year (winter going forward) in a 10% concentration, though I'll have to decide each time when to add it (full OCI, last 1000 miles, or somewhere in between). I also like using it as a regular fuel treatment following a periodic PEA cleaning, for a few tanks, before going back to TC-W3.

-Spyder

 

[demarpaint]

I like to do cleaning during the winter months as well, although I've run MMO at times during all 4 seasons. The reason I favor winter is I typically drive up to the Adirondacks, and have started up in -25*F to -35*F temps, both with and w/o MMO using M1 in 5w30. No pan or block heaters. MMO made those cold starts a lot easier even with the synthetic oil.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I like to do cleaning during the winter months as well, although I've run MMO at times during all 4 seasons. The reason I favor winter is I typically drive up to the Adirondacks, and have started up in -25*F to -35*F temps, both with and w/o MMO using M1 in 5w30. No pan or block heaters. MMO made those cold starts a lot easier even with the synthetic oil.


I picked winter for the one season additive because thinning effect is less pronounced, and its those months that are harder on the oil: more short trips, more idle time, less time at operating temp, less highway. Also the cold start effect makes sense and I'd read about that too, which is another bonus.

-Spyder

 

[Familyguy]

I was using Rotella 5W-40 synthetic in my Saturn (new to me @ 110k miles). It burns a bit of oil...perhaps about 1qt every 1200 miles. I kept her topped off with Rotella until it was a quart low with about 1000 miles to go until my initial 3000 mile OCI. Within a week of me adding the MMO, the oil went from maple syrup colored to DARK black. So I dumped the oil and filter and did another 1500 miles with 4qts of Delo 15w40 + 1qt MMO and topped off with Delo at about 1200 miles. Same result. Now I'm running Mobil 1 0w30 without any MMO. I'll run this for 5k miles and see how things come along. When this OCI is over, I'll likely pop off the cam cover to change the gasket since it's got a slight seep and get a good look at things inside.

This is my commuter/beater so I was quite surprised/pleased to see that mileage has gone up a wee bit (from 33-ish to 36-ish mpg) and oil consumption seems to have improved slightly since I got the car about 2 months ago.

Best,