I was reading the moss-magnuson act and I was wondering since no one but chrysler sells ATF+4 do they need to provide it at no charge?The question came up for me because my local dealer charges $10 a quart.Is ATF+4 really a different oil than ATF+3? I was also curious how the brands like Amsoil sell 1 type of ATF to replace dexron,mercon,FA,+3,+4, and so on?
Question about ATF+4 and moss-magnuson
- Thread starter Mitch
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Nope, YOU have to pay for it. An all but unnoticed provision in the Moss-Magnusson Act you're referring to disallows the "free supply" when a proprietary part or fluid is required in order to maintain warranty provisions IF THERE ARE NO OTHER SOURCES FOR IT. As an example, Ford, to its credit, has licensed other ATF formulators to manufacture Mercon V fluids. You can even get SuperTech Mercon V at Wal*Mart, now, for $2.99/qt. If Ford now tried to confine their owners to genuine Motorcraft Mercon V ATF, then they'd HAVE to give it to them as your interpretation of the Moss-Magnusson Act stipultates. In other words the company cannot mandate that you buy a part or fluid from them if an equivalent part or fluid is avialable elsewhere. (something to do with the notion of "freedom of choice") DaimlerChrysler's position in this ATF+4 matter is unconscienable in my opinion, but, they do have the law on their side since THEY'RE THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN FOR ATF+4. (something to do with "capitalism" and "patents") Pray that DaimlerChrysler doesn't buy the Allstate Insurance Company. If that ever happened, you'd really find out what the "Good Hands" people got you by...
Oh, and YES, ATF+4 is REALLY a different fluid from ATF+3, even though it probably smells and looks the same. And, even more so when compared with any of the various Dexron "flavors", Mercon, Mercon V, Type A, Type F, etc - ESPECIALLY Type F (NO friction modifiers). I would NOT recommend any of the niche brand "universal" fluids that claim to mimic ATF+4. They're NOT licensed, so you're on your own in the event of trouble. Chrysler's trannies had some severe problems until recently and ATF+4' additive package is the response that seems to finally keep 'em working properly. (Anyone old enough to remember the old Monsanto slogan - "Better living through chemistry"? That slogan was also popular during the Acid-Head/Flower Power 60's - about the time Monsanto dropped it for some reason...) I believe I read here at BITOG that DaimlerChrysler is now recommending ATF+4 as service fill for trannies that were originally designed for and filled with ATF+3. ATF+4 is a VERY highly friction modified fluid, and may also be synthetic or semi-synthetic based. Substitutions could be very costly in the long run. You could get some hard-nosed arguments if you were to file a warranty claim and there were indications internally that you'd used the wrong fluid. The dealer and/or the DaimlerChrysler area zone rep. would almost certainly demand to see receipts for ATF+4, too, before they'd agree to a warranty trannie rebuild or exchange.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Oh, and YES, ATF+4 is REALLY a different fluid from ATF+3, even though it probably smells and looks the same. And, even more so when compared with any of the various Dexron "flavors", Mercon, Mercon V, Type A, Type F, etc - ESPECIALLY Type F (NO friction modifiers). I would NOT recommend any of the niche brand "universal" fluids that claim to mimic ATF+4. They're NOT licensed, so you're on your own in the event of trouble. Chrysler's trannies had some severe problems until recently and ATF+4' additive package is the response that seems to finally keep 'em working properly. (Anyone old enough to remember the old Monsanto slogan - "Better living through chemistry"? That slogan was also popular during the Acid-Head/Flower Power 60's - about the time Monsanto dropped it for some reason...) I believe I read here at BITOG that DaimlerChrysler is now recommending ATF+4 as service fill for trannies that were originally designed for and filled with ATF+3. ATF+4 is a VERY highly friction modified fluid, and may also be synthetic or semi-synthetic based. Substitutions could be very costly in the long run. You could get some hard-nosed arguments if you were to file a warranty claim and there were indications internally that you'd used the wrong fluid. The dealer and/or the DaimlerChrysler area zone rep. would almost certainly demand to see receipts for ATF+4, too, before they'd agree to a warranty trannie rebuild or exchange.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
Good Post.
"Better Things for Better Living... Through Chemistry" ... duPont, I think
I used Redlines C+ATF in my 2001 Dodge Dakota Quad Cab with 4.7V8 and 45RFE automatic trans. Redline assured me complete compatability and it worked wounderfuly. The best part was that I bought it from the Redline sponsore 30,000 miles ago for $7.50 a quart.
ATF+4 is backwards compatable with ATF+3. It has the same frictional charteristics as ATF+3. THe difference between ATF+3 and ATF+4 is the base stocks used. ATF+3 was group I and Group II base stock. ATF+4 is mostly Group III with some group II and a beefier additve package.
The Redline C+ ATF was designed to have the same frictional property's of ATF+3 but it uses an even beefier additve package and is compased of group V base stocks!
As much as I plug Redline for Chrysler owners they shold be paying me!
I have a UOA of this fluid in my trans on this site. The UOA reflects a 50/50 blend of ATF+4 and Redline. It also reflects a sever accident that damaged the two trany coolers and radiator.
P.S. I drive my vechile like I just stole them so I try to stay on top of maintence!
ATF+4 is backwards compatable with ATF+3. It has the same frictional charteristics as ATF+3. THe difference between ATF+3 and ATF+4 is the base stocks used. ATF+3 was group I and Group II base stock. ATF+4 is mostly Group III with some group II and a beefier additve package.
The Redline C+ ATF was designed to have the same frictional property's of ATF+3 but it uses an even beefier additve package and is compased of group V base stocks!
As much as I plug Redline for Chrysler owners they shold be paying me!
I have a UOA of this fluid in my trans on this site. The UOA reflects a 50/50 blend of ATF+4 and Redline. It also reflects a sever accident that damaged the two trany coolers and radiator.
P.S. I drive my vechile like I just stole them so I try to stay on top of maintence!
In this industry we all have to be aware of the definitions used:
1. Compatable = not the same but in and of itself will not destroy
2. meets or exceeds = in our opinion it's as good
3. recommended for = we couldn't get it approved, but use it anyway
4. can be used in = if you don't care, neither do we
5. used by x personality or by 100's of people = we don't have the guts to recommend it for this, but people still buy it
6. Syntec = it sounds like synthetic, so it must be.
There are many more..... so buyer beware
1. Compatable = not the same but in and of itself will not destroy
2. meets or exceeds = in our opinion it's as good
3. recommended for = we couldn't get it approved, but use it anyway
4. can be used in = if you don't care, neither do we
5. used by x personality or by 100's of people = we don't have the guts to recommend it for this, but people still buy it
6. Syntec = it sounds like synthetic, so it must be.
There are many more..... so buyer beware
G-Man II I UOA showing that it is safe for use. It was in their two years. I also have Redlines Recomendations. We all know that DC is playing liscenseing games. I would also have to say that at least Redline makes a product for each application not some crazy Universal ATF!!
They would require Redline to make an inferior product to get liscense. I have not seen an ATF+4 UOA that was better then my Redline UOA in the same transmission. As a mater of fact to date my UOA of my Redline C+ ATF has been the best ATF UOA I have seen on this site.
They would require Redline to make an inferior product to get liscense. I have not seen an ATF+4 UOA that was better then my Redline UOA in the same transmission. As a mater of fact to date my UOA of my Redline C+ ATF has been the best ATF UOA I have seen on this site.
Iwrote redline to ask if their ATF was compatable.
>DO you have a compatable ATF oil for my '01 and'03 jeep that will keep the OEM warranty?
The C+ATF would be suitable where the Chrysler +4 fluid is called
for. I wouldn't expect there to be a problem with the warranty, but
you could read the owners manual with reference to replacement fluids.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Well I read the owners manual and it says nothing else will work.Going by that statement I would assume warranty would be void from Chrysler and Redline would say tough luck
>DO you have a compatable ATF oil for my '01 and'03 jeep that will keep the OEM warranty?
The C+ATF would be suitable where the Chrysler +4 fluid is called
for. I wouldn't expect there to be a problem with the warranty, but
you could read the owners manual with reference to replacement fluids.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Well I read the owners manual and it says nothing else will work.Going by that statement I would assume warranty would be void from Chrysler and Redline would say tough luck
Well Mitch looks like you only have one choice then! Personely I tink it is silly to complain if you are not going to consider other options. It is like not voteing and then complaining about the President.
Seeing how you need to change the fluid and both filters on the 45RFE and 5-45RFE trans ever 30,000 miles you will have plenty of oppertuity to use Redline C+ ATF after your warranty is up!
My service writer told me that Car Quest has ATF+4 available. I do not know how true it is. He told me to try to avoid buying ATF+4 from DC because it was too darn expensive. He recomended that I look for a synthetic form of ATF+3(this was in 2001). That is how I came across Redline C+. Two years latter he told me that Car Quest had ATF+4(2003). I did not tell him I was useing Redline. He made these statements to me unsolicted when I asked how much a gallon of ATF+4 cost. So at least look for it at Car QUest before you bend over for DC!
P.S. Some early Jeeps with the 45RFE came from the factory with ATF+3. Latter they switched them all over to ATF+4. By 2001 all 45RFE trans' had ATF+4. This alone should indicate that ATF+3 is at least compatable. IF ATF+3 was compatable in the trans initialy this should also indicate that a synthetic ATF+3 would also work. So at least keep an open mind once your waranty is up!
[ September 27, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
Seeing how you need to change the fluid and both filters on the 45RFE and 5-45RFE trans ever 30,000 miles you will have plenty of oppertuity to use Redline C+ ATF after your warranty is up!
My service writer told me that Car Quest has ATF+4 available. I do not know how true it is. He told me to try to avoid buying ATF+4 from DC because it was too darn expensive. He recomended that I look for a synthetic form of ATF+3(this was in 2001). That is how I came across Redline C+. Two years latter he told me that Car Quest had ATF+4(2003). I did not tell him I was useing Redline. He made these statements to me unsolicted when I asked how much a gallon of ATF+4 cost. So at least look for it at Car QUest before you bend over for DC!
P.S. Some early Jeeps with the 45RFE came from the factory with ATF+3. Latter they switched them all over to ATF+4. By 2001 all 45RFE trans' had ATF+4. This alone should indicate that ATF+3 is at least compatable. IF ATF+3 was compatable in the trans initialy this should also indicate that a synthetic ATF+3 would also work. So at least keep an open mind once your waranty is up!
[ September 27, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
Or that conventional ATF+3 was found wanting after further investigation and/or field service problem reports... You well may be right about synthetic ATF+3s being sufficient. But, personally, I wouldn't want to chance it with a trannie still under warranty or extended service contract.
I just got off Car Quest's web site. The company prominently lists the suppliers for their house-brand products. They listed Quaker State and Coastal as their ATF suppliers. A visit to each of those companies' web sites only ellicited as high as Dexron III/Mercon from Coastal, and ATF+3 (both conventional and synthetic) from Valvoline. Maybe either or both companies do make an ATF+4 for Car Quest, but is seems odd that it/they wouldn't also distribute it under its/their respective brand name(s), too.
[ September 27, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]
I guess my concerns are
1. The warranty is 75,000 not 30,000
2.'03 is the first year using this auto trans.
3. Universal in my book means that it fits everything terribly.(Universal ATF)
4. No one, at least redline and amsoil will put in writing that their ATF will keep the factory warranty
1. The warranty is 75,000 not 30,000
2.'03 is the first year using this auto trans.
3. Universal in my book means that it fits everything terribly.(Universal ATF)
4. No one, at least redline and amsoil will put in writing that their ATF will keep the factory warranty
Mitch you are wrong on 03 being the first year they used that trans. If you are refering to the 5-45RFE trans the 5-45RFe trans and the 45RFE trans are the same darn transmission. The 45RFE has 4 forward gears with two close ratio second gears and then a reverse (1-2-2-3-4-R). The 5-45RFE is the exact same transmission with a soft 5th gear created through programing. Ford did the same thing. They are basicly engaugeing two clutch pack at the same time to mimic a 5th forward gear. It was done to reduce transmission noise at hwy speed.THe Dakotas PCM can be flashed for this soft 5th gear as well. The 45RFE has been used since 1998 or 1999 I belive in the Jeeps with 4.7V8 and in the Dakota with the same engine. This is the only transmission used in anything that has the 4.7V8. It is also going to be used in all RWD cars with any V8 includeing the 5.7 Hemi.
Mitch,
I've been selling the Amsoil ATF for these Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep applications for several years and have seen no problems in actual use. I have customers running it in Dodge diesel pickups that pull heavy loads, with significant reductions in fluid temps.
If I owned one of these vehicles, I'd run the factory fluid for 30,000 miles to make sure the transmission isn't defective. Then I'd do a complete fluid change with Amsoil every 75,000 miles, including dropping the pan and servicing the filter or screen.
TS
I've been selling the Amsoil ATF for these Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep applications for several years and have seen no problems in actual use. I have customers running it in Dodge diesel pickups that pull heavy loads, with significant reductions in fluid temps.
If I owned one of these vehicles, I'd run the factory fluid for 30,000 miles to make sure the transmission isn't defective. Then I'd do a complete fluid change with Amsoil every 75,000 miles, including dropping the pan and servicing the filter or screen.
TS
Well since '03 is the first year in Jeep wranglers to have a 4 speed auto I do believe that this would be a new trans.Maybe it is the same internals but the case is sure different than the one I see in grand cherokees.It is behind the old 4.0 6 cylinder.It is the first year for a computer controlled trans (in a wrangler)It is a 42RLE
[ September 28, 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Mitch ]
[ September 28, 2003, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Mitch ]
Mitch,
Let me see if I can answer your original question ....
The way manufacturers get around the MM act with some of these proprietary transmission fluids is very simple. They don't specifically require a fluid change while the unit is under warranty. Many of the German transmissions also come with fluids that are only available through the dealer. For example, VW/Audi, five speed "tiptronic" automatics come with a special fluid made by Esso in Europe. It is considered a "lifetime" fluid - in fact there is NO dipstick on the transmission at all. There is a special diagnostic port for an instrument that measures the level of the fluid. Changing the fluid without special tools is a real PITA!
I happen to think the whole situation is BS, but I'm not sure you have much recourse to do anything about it.
BTW, the Amsoil ATF does NOT meet the Ford Type F specifications - the type F fluids aren't friction modified at all. Amsoil makes a second fluid, called "supershift" for the Ford Type F and CAT TO-4 specifications.
Ted
Let me see if I can answer your original question ....
The way manufacturers get around the MM act with some of these proprietary transmission fluids is very simple. They don't specifically require a fluid change while the unit is under warranty. Many of the German transmissions also come with fluids that are only available through the dealer. For example, VW/Audi, five speed "tiptronic" automatics come with a special fluid made by Esso in Europe. It is considered a "lifetime" fluid - in fact there is NO dipstick on the transmission at all. There is a special diagnostic port for an instrument that measures the level of the fluid. Changing the fluid without special tools is a real PITA!
I happen to think the whole situation is BS, but I'm not sure you have much recourse to do anything about it.
BTW, the Amsoil ATF does NOT meet the Ford Type F specifications - the type F fluids aren't friction modified at all. Amsoil makes a second fluid, called "supershift" for the Ford Type F and CAT TO-4 specifications.
Ted
Mitch you might be right.I know nothing about the Wranglers at all!! I thought you had the Grand Cherokee! At any rate the rest is still true. Their are at least two alternative to the DC only ATF+4. On a positive note the ATF+4 is a pretty good fluid!
P.S. Fear is not the best mind set to use for decission makeing. Fear does not put you in a powerful state.
P.S. Fear is not the best mind set to use for decission makeing. Fear does not put you in a powerful state.
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