Purple Ice

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, more heat transfer would result in the coolant temperature being higher, correct? Isn't one of the claims for the product that that the coolant temperature is lower? How can the coolant temperature be lower when it is taking more heat away from the engine?

Originally Posted By: jk_636
I assume that it warms up faster and then cools the final femp a little lower due to the change in surface tension. More water to the metal, more heat transfer and exchange.


No. Coolant temperature drops as more surface area directly equates to more
BTUs being dispersed through cooling fins of radiator.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: jk_636
I assume that it warms up faster and then cools the final femp a little lower due to the change in surface tension. More water to the metal, more heat transfer and exchange.


The best assumptions can be linked to science that typically has a set of laws (not suggestions) that are pretty well consistent.

Warm up, the alleged benefits of a surfactant can't hold, as there is no potential for boiling to be taking, pace, no free surface, nothing for a surfactant to "wet" as it's all wet already.

So the goop has to lower the specific heat of the water during warm-up, so that a fixed volume of coolant gets to temperature faster.

Then it has to raise the specific heat during normal operation to carry more heat (while running cooler), and taking in all that extra heat from the now wet steam pockets.

Surely the things that this product "does" is starting to sound a little more what can be achieved in a marketting universe rather than the physical one that we inhabit.


This "goop" has the same viscosity as water, so it is not "goop" at all.

I'm not 100% on how it works, but in the physical universe cause and effect are directly related. I see an effect, so there must be a cause.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Or perhaps try it yourself and see if it passes your most stringent quality tests....


Yeah Yeah, I said earlier that I used water wetter.



So your cooling system must be out of the control range of the thermostat, as per Water Wetter's "demonstration" of running 60Fs+ over the thermostat rating.

Your engine has issues then.

 

[PhillipM]

Depends on the engine, most engines these days have undersized radiators because OEM's know they'll spend 99% of their life well under full power output, so they package a smaller rad in there. Obviously if you're tracking the car, or racing, chances are the thermostat is going to be full open most of the time, in which case it helps...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Nonsense^^^

Factually most all modern vehicles in this country have EXCESS radiator and cooling capacity as they are tested to perform at the highest ambient temps on earth.

Death Valley anyone?

 

[philipp10]

well one would have to assume they test the engine at the highest expected operating temperature but probably NOT at full engine power. Most of the time a car/truck engine is running at about 25% capacity max. Towing in the mountains would be much higher. I would suspect the OP's Ram probably never sees more than 25% of radiator capacity being used so this snake oil is just a waste of money.

 

[jk_636]

It works as asvertises in my truck. Apparently that isn't proof enough eh?

I have the distinct feeling that those who have called or snake oil is becuase it is made by RP. If it was an Amsoil or Redline product it would probably be the best thing since sliced white bread now wouldn't it? Dismissing it as snake oil is narrow minded poppycock.

I use almost all Royal purple products in my vehicles and have seen nothing but improvement since I switched. I can assure you it is not snake oil. The Royal purple refinery is about 45 minutes from my house. I'm not sure what kind of snakes fhey are using, but they must not be local becuase we still have plenty around here.

 

[jk_636]

Quote:


...Your engine has issues then.


No issues here. Just increasing performance. Feel free to look for yourself.

Sure has passed a lot of ASTM coolant performance tests for being a "snake oil"

http://www.royalpurple.com/blog/purple-ice-outperforms-the-leading-competitor/

 

[Shannow]

Yep, it's an anti RP conspiracy (is that what the voices in the tinfoil hat tell you ???).

The line of questioning re the claims are entirely legitimate, in a cooling system where the CONTROL ELEMENT is a thermostat...it controls temperature.

When it ceases to be the control element (in the redline video I linked), clearly, the thermostat is NOT controlling, it's a wide open orifice, and the engine is at the mercy of whatever thermodynamic process exists...If it's dropped your coolant temperature, then clearly your thermostat is out of the game in your engine under your operation...it's not an attack, it's fact.

Thermodynamically, it can't make an engine warm faster, as there's a fixed mass of coolant, and the vaunted nucleate boiling is clearly not in existence until thermal overload...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
http://www.royalpurple.com/blog/purple-ice-outperforms-the-leading-competitor/


Passes corrosion tests...yippee...so does coolant.

Again, they are operating an engine on a dyno, 68F above the thermostat operating temperature...if your thermostat is not controlling at street levels of power output...you have an issue.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yep, it's an anti RP conspiracy (is that what the voices in the tinfoil hat tell you ???).

The line of questioning re the claims are entirely legitimate, in a cooling system where the CONTROL ELEMENT is a thermostat...it controls temperature.

When it ceases to be the control element (in the redline video I linked), clearly, the thermostat is NOT controlling, it's a wide open orifice, and the engine is at the mercy of whatever thermodynamic process exists...If it's dropped your coolant temperature, then clearly your thermostat is out of the game in your engine under your operation...it's not an attack, it's fact.

Thermodynamically, it can't make an engine warm faster, as there's a fixed mass of coolant, and the vaunted nucleate boiling is clearly not in existence until thermal overload...


Who said anything about a conspiracy. It works, thats all I care about. My thermostat is just fine, radiator is just fine, coolant is just fine, this just makes it better. You used redline right? Maybe that is why you had poor results. You should use a better product and see what happens!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jk_636
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yep, it's an anti RP conspiracy (is that what the voices in the tinfoil hat tell you ???).

The line of questioning re the claims are entirely legitimate, in a cooling system where the CONTROL ELEMENT is a thermostat...it controls temperature.

When it ceases to be the control element (in the redline video I linked), clearly, the thermostat is NOT controlling, it's a wide open orifice, and the engine is at the mercy of whatever thermodynamic process exists...If it's dropped your coolant temperature, then clearly your thermostat is out of the game in your engine under your operation...it's not an attack, it's fact.

Thermodynamically, it can't make an engine warm faster, as there's a fixed mass of coolant, and the vaunted nucleate boiling is clearly not in existence until thermal overload...


Who said anything about a conspiracy. It works, thats all I care about. My thermostat is just fine, radiator is just fine, coolant is just fine, this just makes it better. You used redline right? Maybe that is why you had poor results. You should use a better product and see what happens!



If your thermostat was just fine and your radiator was just fine, the additive would do nothing. That's the point.

The link you posted above, as Shannow noted, shows an SBC with a 160 degree thermostat running at WELL above the thermostat temperature. It is in a situation where the cooling system capacity is simply inadequate. Yes, the RP product reduces the overheat condition over straight water (200 vs 220F). However, its effectiveness when used in coolant is dramatically lower (228 vs 222F, only 6 degrees).

If the cooling system was sized properly for the application, the engine would stay around the 160 degree thermostat temperature regardless of what fluid was in the system. That's the point of the thermostat.

Does it have better corrosion protection than Redline Water Wetter when used in straight water? Yes. Does it provide better foaming protection in straight water than the Redline product? Yes. Does it do any of these things better than coolant which is already required to pass the same ASDM testing protocols? No.

So it looks like if you are running straight water in your drag car, this product would be beneficial to prevent corrosion and foaming; a better choice than the Redline product.

It also looks like if you have a vehicle with an improperly sized cooling system/inadequate cooling system, that this product, when used with straight water (watch that winter use!) can effectively reduce your overheat condition.

However, it would appear that in a mixture with coolant, in a healthy, properly sized cooling system that there is no real benefit.

 

[PhillipM]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Nonsense^^^

Factually most all modern vehicles in this country have EXCESS radiator and cooling capacity as they are tested to perform at the highest ambient temps on earth.

Death Valley anyone?


Not nonsense, high ambient temperatures, yes, but how often are they at full load? Hook a trailer up to your passenger car and load it so much you have to use full power to climb a hill. See how warm she gets, because I bet it [censored] well goes over point that the thermostat is fully open. And probably brings the auxilary fans on.

I like how you use 'factually' without actually backing it up with a fact, mind.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Nonsense^^^

Factually most all modern vehicles in this country have EXCESS radiator and cooling capacity as they are tested to perform at the highest ambient temps on earth.

Death Valley anyone?


Not nonsense, high ambient temperatures, yes, but how often are they at full load? Hook a trailer up to your passenger car and load it so much you have to use full power to climb a hill. See how warm she gets, because I bet it [censored] well goes over point that the thermostat is fully open. And probably brings the auxilary fans on.

I like how you use 'factually' without actually backing it up with a fact, mind.


I think Steve's statement is likely correct for full-sized trucks and SUV's. Some cars, perhaps not. Anything designed for high speed use (Autobahn) will likely also fall into this category.

We managed to overheat my grandfather's Ranger many moons back trying to back our 22' Century into the barn. A sharp grade and not enough power combined with a small cooling system (that probably wasn't in the best of shape). In comparison, I had my old F-250 to the floor (300 I6 backed with a C6) for extended stints pulling car trailers and it had no problem keeping the coolant at the set temperature even up decent grades at WOT. The Expedition holds 32L of coolant and has a 4-row rad, same situation.

 

[PhillipM]

Well, unless you like running on the cooling fans all the time, no vehicle can be designed for every situation, it's impossible, because if the airspeeds are low and the power output sustained (towing, autocross, etc), they're going to have to assist the radiator. Personally, I prefer not to have a pair of 30 amp cooling fans drawing power unless there's no other option, whilst I don't use RP's additive, I have used Silkolene's offering on racers with marginal cooling and it's worked, dropping temps a couple of degrees under heavy loads - maybe it's just coincidence rather causation, but I'd like to discuss why it might or might not work, rather than be told nobody needs to use it, some people want to, for various reasons, so should we not discuss whether it can or can't work, upsides and downsides instead?

I would expect an F-250 to put up with using more power at low speeds because that's it's target use really, being more on the industrial side than most vehicles, but if you start winding the power up, bigger wheels, more travel, and running it in the desert like the RDC lads do - might have issues then? Not everyone uses their cars for what the manufacturer has in mind, and cars that aren't aimed at that use will have smaller cooling systems for better packaging and better efficiency (cooling air is one of the 'draggiest' fixed areas on the car aerodynamically)
Now, I'm going to say, yes, there must some downside, because otherwise OEM's would integrate it into their products, so I guess it's durability and lifespan isn't up to scratch, but given the coolant gets dropped far more frequently in my cars than usual, I don't really care much

 

[OVERKILL]

The Expie and the F-250 both had clutch fans FWIW. The Bimmer has both an electric and a clutch fan.

An anecdote about another F-250:

A buddy of mine (Diesel mechanic) had an '05 Super Duty (6.0L PSD). These have a pretty robust cooling system on them. It was lifted about 4" with a larger than stock wheel/tire combo on it. It also had a tuner that upped power in three stages. Top stage was 450HP/800tq IIRC. He normally drove around on "2", which was in the neighbourhood of 400HP/750TQ IIRC (don't quote me on those numbers, they are from memory).

He used to do scrap steel runs for extra cash. We'd load the truck box up then put the big tandem behind us which typically scaled somewhere between 13K-15K.

He'd then proceed to drive the tar out of the truck all the way to the scrap yard with all this weight behind it/on it. WOT was used liberally. At no point did the truck ever even approach a temperature much above the thermostat set point.

IIRC, this vehicle also had a huge clutch fan on it

He ran the red Fleetguard coolant in it BTW. Was not a fan of G-05 in that application.

It still appalls me the amount of abuse that truck took.

 

[PhillipM]

Well overengineered to cope with the abuse it's likely to take then, but I wouldn't try that with the M5

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Well overengineered to cope with the abuse it's likely to take then, but I wouldn't try that with the M5

Neither would I, LOL!!!

 

[Shannow]

Interesting juncture to discuss the philosophy of a cooling system...and why in a road car would you want to extract more heat.

In a road car, the thermostat (provided that it's controlling) provides a stream of constant temperature coolant to the radiator...it's not controlling engine temperature.

My preference is always inlet thermostats, which control the coolant temperature into the engine...have made one and used it (sent to Gary Allen back in the day), and have a proper kit that I've used on multiple cars.

By actually controlling engine temperature, on the highway on a freezing day, you can have a dead cold header tank, as the engine is capable of shedding all the heat that it needs to get rid of from the block...

Do the same with an exit thermostat, and you will scald your hand.

The latter is wasteful of energy (not efficient).

Doing so with one car, I could drop the engine driven fan, lift the trialing edge of the bonnet, and get all the heat out that I needed to at idle (a strong breeze in the wrong direction would wreck it).

Provided I had a cast iron closed impeller water pump...the bent tin ones never moved water at idle, and would overheat at idle.

Thus I question the need for these products, in a street engine...in the name of "efficiency"

 

[PhillipM]

Lifting the trailing edge of the bonnet on most modern cars will have the exact opposite effect, as it's at a higher pressure than the usual underfloor exit.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Nonsense^^^

Factually most all modern vehicles in this country have EXCESS radiator and cooling capacity as they are tested to perform at the highest ambient temps on earth.

Death Valley anyone?


Not nonsense, high ambient temperatures, yes, but how often are they at full load? Hook a trailer up to your passenger car and load it so much you have to use full power to climb a hill. See how warm she gets, because I bet it [censored] well goes over point that the thermostat is fully open. And probably brings the auxilary fans on.

I like how you use 'factually' without actually backing it up with a fact, mind.


I like how the words "I bet" and "probably" in your post somehow makes you more credible, eh?

IME here all my tracked cars easily handle the heat even at high ambient temps of over 100 degrees at Sebring and Homestead. No these are not Civics but they are standard cooling systems as shipped on the cars. Models I have tracked include Corvette, Porsche, SRT, and a few others.

Obviously you don't ALWAYS operate at full power but I repeat that all modern cars sold in America have adequate cooling as shipped for any and all operation the car is capable of as delivered. We most specifically are NOT discussing some dream of yours with big loads and steep hills unless you follow the recommended loads as specified by the mfgr. for the vehicle type.

My Ram can easily tow far more than its rated 10,450 pounds with 400 foot pounds of torque, eight speeds, and 3.91 gears. But at it's rated loads it will handle what it was DESIGNED AND BUILT to do without overheating a bit. So will an American spec import from almost any maker...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: PhillipM
Lifting the trailing edge of the bonnet on most modern cars will have the exact opposite effect, as it's at a higher pressure than the usual underfloor exit.


No, was a thermosyphon at idle...hot air escaped, letting the motor cool.