PureOnes not for motorcycles?

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: ThirdeYe
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I think it really depends on the bike. My Harley's oil pressure runs between 35 pds hot running, and 10 pds hot at idle. My '82 wings oil pressure is supposed to run around 60 pds. So other brands of bike must also vary.As long as the bike filter isn't twice the price of the std filter I wouldn't be bothered much by it.,,


The bike's max pump output pressure all depends on the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump - same basic setup as most automobiles on the road.

Let's assume the oil pump's pressure relief valve is set to 70 psi. This means that the max possible oil pressure obtainable would be 70 psi going into the oil filter - no matter what the oil viscosity or flow volume is.

If the oil was hot, and a cycle specific filter gave you 35 psi running, and a different filter gave you 50 psi running, then the flow volume going through the system is still the same because the pump has not yet hit its relief pressure setting of 70 psi.



Okay, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know much about the specifics of an oil pump and filter, but basically what you're saying is that the oil pump compensates for an oil filter's "restriction" by simply providing more PSI to allow for the same amount of oil to flow through the filter?


No the pressure will rise until the oil pump bypass opens due to the restriction and the flow will be reduced out of the filter.


The only time the oil flow will be reduced through the filter/engine is if the pump is in pressure relief mode and the filter is much more restrictive than it should be.

Example:
Pump's pressure relief is 70 psi
Filter A has 5 PSID with hot oil and engine is at 5000 RPM - pump in relief mode at 70 psi output.
Filter B has 10 PSID with hot oil and engine is at 5000 RPM - pump in relief mode at 70 psi output.

Pressure at filter outlet:
With Filter A: 70 - 5 = 65 psi
With Filter B: 70 - 10 = 60 psi
Result: Less oil volume going to filter/engine with Filter B.

If the pump's output pressure is 60 psi (below 70 psi relief setting) at say 4000 RPM in both instances, then the oil volume will be the SAME with both Filter A or Filter B. The ONLY time you will see any flow difference with filters of different flow resistance is when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

A positive displacement oil pump will put the same volume through the filter/engine at the same engine RPM any time the pump is not in relief mode - regardless of how restrictive the filter is. If the pump's pressure relief valve is not open (and shunting back to the sump), then all the pump's output MUST go to the filter/engine.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: ThirdeYe

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know much about the specifics of an oil pump and filter, but basically what you're saying is that the oil pump compensates for an oil filter's "restriction" by simply providing more PSI to allow for the same amount of oil to flow through the filter?


As I explained above ... yes, what you said above is true. If the filter is more restrictive, the pump's output pressure will simply increase in order to put the same positive displaced volume through the system.

If the filter is so restrictive that it causes the oil pump's output pressure to bump up against the pressure relief setting, then you will see the effect of the more restrictive oil filter - assuming you only have a pressure gauge on the downside of the filter.

 

[ERankin]

Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
For that matter, do you really think any ordinary consumer (maybe some fleet owner could) has ever recovered any money from an oil filter manufacturer because of a problem with an oil filter causing damage to an engine? I highly doubt it.


Well they could be trying to look out for their customers who might be inclined to deliberately go against the manufacturers suggestion for use of their products. That is the appearance of their statement. They went to all this trouble for a reason. That would lower their customer service complaints and perhaps keep their good name from being drug through the mud on sites like this.

Or it could be a conspiracy to sell more motorcycle filters as has been suggested.

Or they may be completely incompetent and not understand their products nor their applications. Is it your intent to substantiate this conclusion?


My previous comment was mostly tongue in cheek. I'm sure it's more of a CYA thing than a "conspiracy" and that they do engineer their motorcycle filters for the application.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: ERankin
My previous comment was mostly tongue in cheek. I'm sure it's more of a CYA thing than a "conspiracy" and that they do engineer their motorcycle filters for the application.


I believe the Purolator motorcycle filters are made in China.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
There are two different basic lubrication schemes used in motorcycles. Most modern bikes use a system of plain bearings and a high pressure pump, like automobile engines. Harley, bevel Ducatis, and many, if not most Japanese bikes from the '70s and '80s used ball or roller bearings for the mains and rods. These bikes used a low pressure system that didn't need to do much but circulate the oil. It was not uncommon for bikes of that era to be, um, shall we say, under-engineered.

I can see where a roller bearing engine may have difficulty with a restrictive filter, and used only screens, or may have specified a very free flowing paper filter. I wouldn't expect plain bearing engine to have much issue with the current PureOne unless engineering shortcuts have been taken in the name of cost, compactness, etc.

Ed


I could understand Purolator's concern/warning if indeed a bike had a very low pressure oiling system. I mean it would really have to be a very low pressure output system for a few added PSI pressure drop from a filter to effect oil flow significantly.

They probably had some guy use one of their PureONE filers on something that needed a bug screen for an oil filter, and it caused some problem. One instance like that is all it takes for a company to do a CYA statement like that.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa

The only time the oil flow will be reduced through the filter/engine is if the pump is in pressure relief mode and the filter is much more restrictive than it should be.

Example:
Pump's pressure relief is 70 psi
Filter A has 5 PSID with hot oil and engine is at 5000 RPM - pump in relief mode at 70 psi output.
Filter B has 10 PSID with hot oil and engine is at 5000 RPM - pump in relief mode at 70 psi output.

Pressure at filter outlet:
With Filter A: 70 - 5 = 65 psi
With Filter B: 70 - 10 = 60 psi
Result: Less oil volume going to filter/engine with Filter B.

If the pump's output pressure is 60 psi (below 70 psi relief setting) at say 4000 RPM in both instances, then the oil volume will be the SAME with both Filter A or Filter B. The ONLY time you will see any flow difference with filters of different flow resistance is when the oil pump is in pressure relief mode.

A positive displacement oil pump will put the same volume through the filter/engine at the same engine RPM any time the pump is not in relief mode - regardless of how restrictive the filter is. If the pump's pressure relief valve is not open (and shunting back to the sump), then all the pump's output MUST go to the filter/engine.


OK what you're saying is correct I believe. I was thinking more along the lines that someone was saying the pressure relief valve would compensate by increasing volume which wasn't the case. I don't know what the deal is with Purolator not recommending P1's for cycles but maybe they are just being cautious in case the oil used is thick and cold, the filter bypass setting, or something.

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: ERankin
Originally Posted By: EagleFTE
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
For that matter, do you really think any ordinary consumer (maybe some fleet owner could) has ever recovered any money from an oil filter manufacturer because of a problem with an oil filter causing damage to an engine? I highly doubt it.


Well they could be trying to look out for their customers who might be inclined to deliberately go against the manufacturers suggestion for use of their products. That is the appearance of their statement. They went to all this trouble for a reason. That would lower their customer service complaints and perhaps keep their good name from being drug through the mud on sites like this.

Or it could be a conspiracy to sell more motorcycle filters as has been suggested.

Or they may be completely incompetent and not understand their products nor their applications. Is it your intent to substantiate this conclusion?


My previous comment was mostly tongue in cheek. I'm sure it's more of a CYA thing than a "conspiracy" and that they do engineer their motorcycle filters for the application.


I know you were. Might be true in some cases but I really don't think MC sales would impact Purolators bottom line in any event. But you are right that often times items related to motorcycles, boats, etc draw a premium price for a not so premium product. I think the big problem with the ML line would be finding one on the shelf at your favorite store. Checked the on line price and they are selling on Ebay at 2 for $10.