PureOnes not for motorcycles?

[AuthorEditor]

I understand that this message was posted on the Purolator Web site:

"If you're thinking you want to install a PureONE oil filter on your bike, please think again. PureONE oil filters are designed for vehicles, not bikes. Because of PureONE's high efficiency, the motorcycle oil pump may not be able to handle the pressure. The Purolator motorcycle filter line is designed to meet the specific needs of a bike; therefore we highly recommend the use of a Purolator ML filter over a PureONE oil filter."

Do you think this makes sense? I've been using PureOnes on my motorcycle for two years with no known problems, as have many others.

 

[SuperBusa]

Their statement ...

"Because of PureONE's high efficiency, the motorcycle oil pump may not be able to handle the pressure."

... doesn't make much sense to me.

Are they claiming there is so much flow resistance that a motorcycle oil pump can't pump oil through a PureONE? I highly doubt that is the case since we know the PureONE actually flows pretty well - probably as well as any cycle specific oil filter. I'd like to hear what the Purolator engineer's reasoning is on this one. A motorcycle's oil pump usually puts out as much or more pressure than an auto's pump.

 

[crazyoildude]

Restriction maybe?
If a filter filters as good as they say there has to be more restriction i don't care what everyone says unless they are using some miracle media..
I learned about physics in like fourth grade and i don't think the theory changed that much..

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Restriction maybe?
If a filter filters as good as they say there has to be more restriction i don't care what everyone says unless they are using some miracle media..
I learned about physics in like fourth grade and i don't think the theory changed that much..


The PureONE tested in the link below is some what larger than most cycle filters, but I doubt a cycle puts out 10 or 12 GPM of flow either. Note that there is only 5 psi of pressure drop at 12 GPM flow - hot oil of course.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1630494&page=1

 

[BigCahuna]

I think it really depends on the bike. My Harley's oil pressure runs between 35 pds hot running, and 10 pds hot at idle. My '82 wings oil pressure is supposed to run around 60 pds. So other brands of bike must also vary.As long as the bike filter isn't twice the price of the std filter I wouldn't be bothered much by it.,,

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I think it really depends on the bike. My Harley's oil pressure runs between 35 pds hot running, and 10 pds hot at idle. My '82 wings oil pressure is supposed to run around 60 pds. So other brands of bike must also vary.As long as the bike filter isn't twice the price of the std filter I wouldn't be bothered much by it.,,


The bike's max pump output pressure all depends on the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump - same basic setup as most automobiles on the road.

Let's assume the oil pump's pressure relief valve is set to 70 psi. This means that the max possible oil pressure obtainable would be 70 psi going into the oil filter - no matter what the oil viscosity or flow volume is.

If the oil was hot, and a cycle specific filter gave you 35 psi running, and a different filter gave you 50 psi running, then the flow volume going through the system is still the same because the pump has not yet hit its relief pressure setting of 70 psi.

 

[mechanicx]

I think that if a different filter caused a higher oil pressure, then the backpressure would cause reduce flow through the pump with the pressure regulator notwithstanding. In other words, the pump would not suck as much oil through the pick up from the sump. A pump delivers a certain volume at a certain pressure.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think that if a different filter caused a higher oil pressure, then the backpressure would cause reduce flow through the pump with the pressure regulator notwithstanding. In other words, the pump would not suck as much oil through the pick up from the sump. A pump delivers a certain volume at a certain pressure.


If you've ever seen a performance curve of a positive displacement oil pump, you will see it's basically a linear line with some slight trail off on the upper end of it's output curve. There might be a slight amount of volume reduction due to increased back pressure, but if the pump is in good shape (ie, tight clearances) it shouldn't have much effect.

And besides, filters aren't very restrictive to flow compared to the rest of the oiling system. There is probably only a 2~3 PSID difference between most filters when used under the same conditions.

 

[ERankin]

I'm going to take a wild guess that their motorcycle specific filters sell for significantly higher prices...

 

[dwendt44]

I've used PureOnes on my Gold Wing for several years now with no problems.
I don't care for the new color so I may use something else in the future. The pretty blue can matched the bike's color real fine.

 

[RF Overlord]

I think ERankin nailed it...

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
I understand that this message was posted on the Purolator Web site:

"If you're thinking you want to install a PureONE oil filter on your bike, please think again. PureONE oil filters are designed for vehicles, not bikes. Because of PureONE's high efficiency, the motorcycle oil pump may not be able to handle the pressure. The Purolator motorcycle filter line is designed to meet the specific needs of a bike; therefore we highly recommend the use of a Purolator ML filter over a PureONE oil filter."

Do you think this makes sense? I've been using PureOnes on my motorcycle for two years with no known problems, as have many others.


Yes this warning is on their web site and in the past was displayed as a full page warning. Now it is at the bottom of the MC/ATV section. Somewhere there is a similar warning in the form of an Email from Champion Labs about the use of M1 filters on bikes. The Harley Evo is an example of an enigne/oil system that has experienced problems (real world, not theory) with filter restriction.

Yes they do sell motorcycle/ATV filters and I think the profit margin may be higher in some cases. But also important to the consumer is the message that we (Purolator, Champ, etc) make MC filters. The application chart for our products does not list the automotive filter you selected for your bike. If you have a problem and you are not using the filter recommended by our app chart don't come whining to us, you are on your own. You will be on your own with the MC manufacturer as well I assume.

But if they work in your application and you think that is your best option continue.

 

[AuthorEditor]

My MC is well beyond warranty so I can't complain to anyone. For that matter, do you really think any ordinary consumer (maybe some fleet owner could) has ever recovered any money from an oil filter manufacturer because of a problem with an oil filter causing damage to an engine? I highly doubt it.

 

[ThirdeYe]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I think it really depends on the bike. My Harley's oil pressure runs between 35 pds hot running, and 10 pds hot at idle. My '82 wings oil pressure is supposed to run around 60 pds. So other brands of bike must also vary.As long as the bike filter isn't twice the price of the std filter I wouldn't be bothered much by it.,,


The bike's max pump output pressure all depends on the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump - same basic setup as most automobiles on the road.

Let's assume the oil pump's pressure relief valve is set to 70 psi. This means that the max possible oil pressure obtainable would be 70 psi going into the oil filter - no matter what the oil viscosity or flow volume is.

If the oil was hot, and a cycle specific filter gave you 35 psi running, and a different filter gave you 50 psi running, then the flow volume going through the system is still the same because the pump has not yet hit its relief pressure setting of 70 psi.



Okay, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know much about the specifics of an oil pump and filter, but basically what you're saying is that the oil pump compensates for an oil filter's "restriction" by simply providing more PSI to allow for the same amount of oil to flow through the filter?

 

[AuthorEditor]

No, there is a pressure relief valve in the oil system between the oil pump and the filter. That valve will only allow so much pressure, say possibly around 75 psi, before it opens and dumps oil back into the pan. So the max pressure for the system is set by that valve. An oil filter might normally only introduce a pressure drop of say 3 psi, but a very restrictive filter, a plugged filter, or very cold oil might cause a greater drop in pressure across the filter. However, the oil filter also has a bypass valve that opens at normally around 8-14 psi difference across the filter to prevent oil starvation to the engine. I have noticed that the bypass valve in the PureOne PL14610 filter is set rather high at 14-18 psi. Maybe that is the issue.

 

[mrsilv04]

I didn't use anything but a Honda filter on my Goldwing (and JASO MA) oil while it was under warranty.

Now that it isn't.... I may re-evaluate my choice of filters. However, I will continue to use the Amsoil in it.

Problem is, a NAPA Gold filter costs about as much as the Honda one.

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
For that matter, do you really think any ordinary consumer (maybe some fleet owner could) has ever recovered any money from an oil filter manufacturer because of a problem with an oil filter causing damage to an engine? I highly doubt it.


Well they could be trying to look out for their customers who might be inclined to deliberately go against the manufacturers suggestion for use of their products. That is the appearance of their statement. They went to all this trouble for a reason. That would lower their customer service complaints and perhaps keep their good name from being drug through the mud on sites like this.

Or it could be a conspiracy to sell more motorcycle filters as has been suggested.

Or they may be completely incompetent and not understand their products nor their applications. Is it your intent to substantiate this conclusion?

 

[AuthorEditor]

I have nothing against Purolator at all--I use their filters on two different applications (a car and a motorcycle) and have been happy with the results. I was just wondering what the knowledgeable folks on here thought of the reasoning behind the statement from PureOne about motorcycles, especially since a lot of motorcyclists seem to be doing the opposite.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: ThirdeYe
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I think it really depends on the bike. My Harley's oil pressure runs between 35 pds hot running, and 10 pds hot at idle. My '82 wings oil pressure is supposed to run around 60 pds. So other brands of bike must also vary.As long as the bike filter isn't twice the price of the std filter I wouldn't be bothered much by it.,,


The bike's max pump output pressure all depends on the pressure relief valve setting on the oil pump - same basic setup as most automobiles on the road.

Let's assume the oil pump's pressure relief valve is set to 70 psi. This means that the max possible oil pressure obtainable would be 70 psi going into the oil filter - no matter what the oil viscosity or flow volume is.

If the oil was hot, and a cycle specific filter gave you 35 psi running, and a different filter gave you 50 psi running, then the flow volume going through the system is still the same because the pump has not yet hit its relief pressure setting of 70 psi.



Okay, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't know much about the specifics of an oil pump and filter, but basically what you're saying is that the oil pump compensates for an oil filter's "restriction" by simply providing more PSI to allow for the same amount of oil to flow through the filter?


No the pressure will rise until the oil pump bypass opens due to the restriction and the flow will be reduced out of the filter. The volume would never increased. yeah I don't see what the pump bypass valve has to do with it anyway. The bypass valve may be closed and the pump may be able to reach maximum pressure but if it is meeting a restrictive at the filter, then it's not pumping as much volume and there will be a pressure drop downstream of the filter.

I'm not saying you can't run an automotive filter on a bike or that it would restrict anything, I'm just saying if the pressure increased due to a restriction the volume would drop. Volume is fixed by oil pump size and RPM, pressure is determined by restriction and limited to the bypass setting. If something more restrictive was added volume would drop and not really be compesated for (you would have to raise the bypass setting), and pressure and volume would be reduce downstream.

Maybe a classic Purolater would be a betetr choice being less likely to clog and having a lower bypass setting? Although I'm not sure if it's lolower efficiency would compesate for maybe having a lower holding capacity.

 

[edhackett]

There are two different basic lubrication schemes used in motorcycles. Most modern bikes use a system of plain bearings and a high pressure pump, like automobile engines. Harley, bevel Ducatis, and many, if not most Japanese bikes from the '70s and '80s used ball or roller bearings for the mains and rods. These bikes used a low pressure system that didn't need to do much but circulate the oil. It was not uncommon for bikes of that era to be, um, shall we say, under-engineered.

I can see where a roller bearing engine may have difficulty with a restrictive filter, and used only screens, or may have specified a very free flowing paper filter. I wouldn't expect plain bearing engine to have much issue with the current PureOne unless engineering shortcuts have been taken in the name of cost, compactness, etc.

Ed