Prove to me, the perceived benefits of synthetic!

[Toy4x4runner]

I look at it this way... If you live in a place like FL where it's 50F at the coldest... and usually in the 90's. Why pay $6/qt for Syns for a daily driver that most people are gonna get rid of in 6yrs/60K miles. I think Syns really shine in LOW TEMP start ups. So if I live in Maine, it's Negative 20F for most the winter, YES I will probly buy a full Syn if I plan on keeping the car for a while. Oil is engineering. Castrol got that 100% correct. "Liquid engineering". So. Why "Over Engineer" something? You wouldn't have a 4' thick concrete slab with 2' diameter pilings every 10' on a 1 level residential home in FL. However, if you had 50 stories of office space above it you might/probly would. There is Under-Engineered, properly engineered and over engineered. When properly engineered, things function like they are supposed to and last the proper longevity and reduce cost. that's why the field of engineering exists. for most people buying Syns is a waste IMO.

My doctor/friend bought a 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 I6 Auto new. He didn't rag on it, but didn't baby it. He changed the oil every 15K at local Lube joints, NEVER had the Auto trans fluid changed and drove the thing across america and locally a lot. he sold it a few weeks ago to my friend for $300 with a blown Head gasket but still running. 315,000 miles on it!!!!! original motor, never had anything but alternators and such done. Why should he of bought Synthetics? To get 350K? 400k? the truck was falling apart.

Match the oil to the engine/use/environment and change it regularly with a good filter. Say a pray and that's all you can do.

 

[Terry]

Prove it yourself, theres plenty of data here to spend hours reading to make an informed decision one way or the other.

I think.

 

[Cicero]

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the only question I want to ask is simple:

.....IF you only used 3K OCI and....
.....IF M1 or REDLINE, etc. cost EXACTLY THE SAME as Havoline or GTX, etc. which would you use in your automobiles and why?

---

It's not as "black and white" as most make it out to be. I don't think in such simple terms.

The answer to your question is that for my car, in the conditions I operate it in, I would use the Havoline/GTX. Now, if I had a Turbo and drove it hard for 3k miles, I'd use the RL/M1 and back it up with oil analysis.

---

Buster said..."It's not as "black and white" as most make it out to be."

Sure it is, Buster.

A very simple hypothetical black or white question. If you want to change my question to avoid answering it, that's cool or maybe you didn't understand it since you don't think in simple terms?

You said..."The answer to your question is that for my car, in the conditions I operate it in, I would use the Havoline/GTX." That wasn't my question and you know it, so you didn't answer it. I'll try again in terms more complex.

Would you still use Havoline/GTX in you car in the conditions you operate it in IF YOU COULD HAVE ANY COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE SYNTHETIC OIL FOR THE EXACT SAME PRICE?

 

[Cicero]

Buster, did you mean by your answer... "Yes, I'd use dino over any synthetic at the same price for my car in my driving conditions."??? Is that a fair interpretation of your answer? If so, then my prior post was based on my misunderstanding. So, would you please answer the why part of the question?

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

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Maybe the Toyota manual says something different, but it seems that normal driving isn't 'sever service'.



"For normal driving conditions Toyota recommends changing the engine oil and engine oil filter at a minimum of every 7,500 miles or 6 months, whichever occurs first. This engine oil change interval requires changing your engine oil a minimum of twice a year.

For special operating conditions Toyota recommends changing the engine oil and engine oil filter at a minimum of every 5,000 miles or 4 months, whichever occurs first. This engine oil change interval requires changing your engine oil a minimum of three times a year.

Special Operating Conditions include the following:

Driving on unpaved or dusty roads
Towing a trailer or using a camper or car-top carrier
Repeated short trips of less than five miles in temperatures below freezing
Driving on rough, muddy, or salt-covered roads
Extensive idling or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use, such as delivery, taxi, or patrol car "

---

The manual says;



Then if we go to 5k, 10k, 15k service items;



(the little 1 next to the oil filters states to rest the oil replacement reminder after replacing oil and filter)

No normal or severe service. Just 5k or 6 months. Period. Both cars and trucks.

And if someone is grown up enough to own a car, then I don't buy the need for syn if they can not remember to change the oil on time.

Its called being responsible.

(oh, I bet this will get some comments...

)

Change the oil when it needs to be changed. 5k is 5k. Not 7.5k.

Take care, bill

 

[Francis]

Well I know allot of guy's that use Mineral oils and prefer to change them more often. I had an engine with over 200,000kms on it, only ever used Mineral oils, changed very often. That engine looked brand new inside, only the tinted colour of oil, and ware was near in-measurable.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

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IF you only used 3K OCI and....
.....IF M1 or REDLINE, etc. cost EXACTLY THE SAME as Havoline or GTX, etc. which would you use in your automobiles and why?

---

I'd use Pennzoil Conventional or Chevron.

Why, I get better UOAs when I ran the above over M1 in my engines everytime. Same OCI, Same time of the year and same driving style.

I've done the trending with many UOAs using Syn and conventional.

Have you?

So, I use which has worked for hundreds of thousands of miles (one approaching 300k miles using only conventional oils) and using oils that I bought on sale.

I can (and do) change my oil and filter for less than a single quart of Mobil 1. (oh, thats 6 quarts and filter).

The UOAs and long engine life prove it for me.

And since this is the real world, I'll save the $$$ and use that money for something else than the oil companies bottom line.

Take care, Bill

 

[CharBaby]

I ran my 1988 Honda Accord to 340,000 on dino oil with 3-5000 OCI's and no UOA's. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I would rather buy better engines than to spend my money on better oil. I used a decent name brand at most oil changes but I also used alot of store brand oil(SuperTech,ProLine,AdvAuto stuff). I've been using some Syn oil in with the mix of dinos lately only because I have made some huge scores(thanks BITOG) of Syn's for a dollar or less per quart at closeout. Otherwise it's dino for me (Hav,Penz,GTX etc.) and some store brands now and again.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

For the same price? I'd use Redline over Havoline or GTX!!

But I'd feel guilty draining it every 3K even if it was that cheap!

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

Bill, what year Toyota is that owner's manual from?

 

[abimanyu]

I live in Jakarta, Indonesia, where extreme heat temperature(ambient temperature around 38 celsius to 40 celsius),traffic jam stop and go like you wouldn't believe(sometimes it takes an hour just to drive through 1 km of road),high humidity 80% to 100%,dusty,highly polluted air,and questionable quality of gasoline are the norms. Can you honestly tell me to use conventional oil? Only the best synthetic for my car coz I intend to be the last owner of my car.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

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Bill, what year Toyota is that owner's manual from?

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Its the 2005 Scheduled Maintenance Guide.

"Passport to Performance"

It's the same guide for all 2005 Models except the Prius.

It gets its own...

Take care, Bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

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I live in Jakarta, Indonesia, where extreme heat temperature(ambient temperature around 38 celsius to 40 celsius),traffic jam stop and go like you wouldn't believe(sometimes it takes an hour just to drive through 1 km of road),high humidity 80% to 100%,dusty,highly polluted air,and questionable quality of gasoline are the norms. Can you honestly tell me to use conventional oil? Only the best synthetic for my car coz I intend to be the last owner of my car.

---

Well, I know mostly every other car thats what they use.

I love watching the Amazing race and other tv shows that visit around the world. You see these Toyota corollas, all the other cars being used as taxi cabs in heavy traffic and I'd bet they are lucky to get a oil change a year. (some of them are lucky to get a wash a year it looks like)

You think all of the third world countries with their poor gas, poor roads are running Mobil 1 or some other syn?

And those engines are running hundreds of thousands of miles on who knows what maintenance...

At my work, we have trucks that are run 20 hours a day (and idle every min of those 20 hours) on what ever Jiffy Lube puts in. The oci? (the sticker says 3k)

If they are lucky 6-7k. Our new Toyota Tundras trucks (bTW, nice truck) have 6k on them and still have the orginal fill...

The old 98s have 200k + on them (and they are driven hard) and the 01s have 160k+. They don't use any oil between changes (we have to check when we fill up) and run fine.

Wish I could say the same for the plastic parts of the trucks..

Ask around where you live and I'd bet you'd be lucky to see working cars with normal oil changes. Much less with Syn.

Its the same here. Most engines do not see syn and last a long time.

Take care, bill

 

[1sttruck]

"Its called being responsible. (oh, I bet this will get some comments... Change the oil when it needs to be changed. 5k is 5k. Not 7.5k"

Toyota recommended the 7500 mile oil change interval for other than severe driving conditions. Toyota in part defined severe driving conditions as 'heavy commercial use', which is not commuting in a private vehicle. Toyota reduced the oil change interval to 5000 miles as part of the fix to reduce sludging. The 7500 mile oil change interval defined by Toyota is not severe service, as servere service is severe service.

This is the first time that I've looked into the Toyota sludging issue in any detail, and so far it's apparent that if Toyota is trying to place blame on owners for not using a 5000 mile oil change then Toyota is fault, as they recommended the 7500 oil change interval.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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the only question I want to ask is simple:

.....IF you only used 3K OCI and....
.....IF M1 or REDLINE, etc. cost EXACTLY THE SAME as Havoline or GTX, etc. which would you use in your automobiles and why?

---

It's not as "black and white" as most make it out to be. I don't think in such simple terms.

The answer to your question is that for my car, in the conditions I operate it in, I would use the Havoline/GTX. Now, if I had a Turbo and drove it hard for 3k miles, I'd use the RL/M1 and back it up with oil analysis.

---

Buster said..."It's not as "black and white" as most make it out to be."

Sure it is, Buster.

A very simple hypothetical black or white question. If you want to change my question to avoid answering it, that's cool or maybe you didn't understand it since you don't think in simple terms?

You said..."The answer to your question is that for my car, in the conditions I operate it in, I would use the Havoline/GTX." That wasn't my question and you know it, so you didn't answer it. I'll try again in terms more complex.

Would you still use Havoline/GTX in you car in the conditions you operate it in IF YOU COULD HAVE ANY COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE SYNTHETIC OIL FOR THE EXACT SAME PRICE?

---

Your question is unrealistic in that you are shifting the paradigm of norms. At the same time there is no evidence that in most services at that tiny interval that synthetic would provide measurable differnces. You forget another facet of Human nature... IF they were all the same price people would eventually not recognize the Term synthetic as having any value since..it is now commonly available for the same price. Tough call, but not based on reality.

 

[Drew99GT]

Most long timers here no my position on the subject. I've never seen the proof yet that 7 buck a quart oil will do something so magical as to make an engine go 200,000 miles. Why? Cause there's one sitting in my driveway that just rolled 200,000; been run mostly on Pennzoil 5w-30 dino. And guess what, the metal surfaces inside look like fresh castings. Sludge????? HAAAAAAAA, there's not even varnish. And it still gets BETTER than EPA rated fuel mileage.

I wouldn't even run synthetic in a turbocharged engine. WHY? Because I've run dino in one for 50,000 HARD, and I mean HARD miles. Same results, no sludge, no varnish, no turbo coking, no nothing, just great performance.

BUT, I am ANAL as all get out about doing oil changes on time and keeping everything else in good working order, especially cooling systems.

If you like spending the money on synthetic and extending changes, then by all means, go for it. And we all know that there's plenty of members here running oil change intervals that would give me nightmares with not one hint of a problem and getting insanely high mileage out of there vehicles. Two ways to skin a cat. In the end, you end up with a bald cat!

 

[Bill in Utah]

Quote:

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"Its called being responsible. (oh, I bet this will get some comments... Change the oil when it needs to be changed. 5k is 5k. Not 7.5k"

Toyota recommended the 7500 mile oil change interval for other than severe driving conditions. Toyota in part defined severe driving conditions as 'heavy commercial use', which is not commuting in a private vehicle. Toyota reduced the oil change interval to 5000 miles as part of the fix to reduce sludging. The 7500 mile oil change interval defined by Toyota is not severe service, as servere service is severe service.

This is the first time that I've looked into the Toyota sludging issue in any detail, and so far it's apparent that if Toyota is trying to place blame on owners for not using a 5000 mile oil change then Toyota is fault, as they recommended the 7500 oil change interval.

---

So I guess commuting in bumper to bumper traffic is not severe service?

It is.

But they changed the OCI to 5k to make things SIMPLER.

Guess they should be shot for that.

No questions on what type of driving. Look at the manual instead of trying to put Toyota down.

The number of sludging engines are 2 of the many Toyota builds. Not very many of those 2 models have actually had any sludging. Most people who did have problems did not follow the manual for severe service. (or don't change oil to often)

Toyota also assisted those people with their problems.

Other than GM with their OLM, they are the only mfg looking at making oil changes easy.

I know what make will never be in your stable!

Also my comment you quoted about was about people who put syn in because they can not do Oil changes when they are needed to be done. They can not be bothered with doing maintanence at a actual interval. Nothing about Toyotas 7.5k or 5k oci when I made that comment.

Take care, Bill

 

[1sttruck]

"So I guess commuting in bumper to bumper traffic is not severe service?

It is. "

It is not according to Toyota; "Extensive idling or low-speed driving for long distances as in heavy commercial use, such as delivery, taxi, or patrol car". The Toyota apologists can try to word weasel all they want, but commuting in a passenger car is not 'heavy commercial use, such as delivery, taxi, or patrol car'. It is easy to state otherwise, but they didn't do so.

The distinction that Toyota apologists need to acknowledge is that in fact it may have been severe service for the vehicles that Toyota was selling, but it was Toyota's fault for recommending the 7500 oil change interval and defining severe service the way that they did.

 

[1sttruck]

For the second time, Toyota apologists need to understand that the 7500 mile oil change interval defined by Toyota is an oil change interval, that 'severe service' is the vehicle operating condition, and that they are different; just because one uses a 7500 oil change interval does not mean that they also operated under a severe service (actually not severe service per non Toyota apologists definition).

 

[AndyH]

Bill,

Can you please shrink those images so they're not so wide? It makes reading this thread difficult as I continually have to scroll right and left to read all the posts. Thanks much,
-AndyH