How long ago was that written?
Prove to me, the perceived benefits of synthetic!
- Thread starter The Critic
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Tom:
Thanks for the great reply. There are several points you brought up that I’d like to address.
I’m merely questioning the benefits of synthetics, in applications where the OEM did not originally recommend the use of synthetic oil. As for service intervals, I’m questioning the advantages of synthetic oil compared to conventional oil, provided that both oils are drained per OEM drain intervals, which can be as low as 2000 miles to as high as 12000 miles in some cases.
The benefits you discussed regarding oil breakdown are certainly valid, at high temperatures. This is the exact reason why GM recommends the usage of and factory fills their track ready models with synthetic oil. And GM also recommends the usage of synthetic oil in extremely cold climates for the improved cold temperature performance. However, for Joe Blow, how can he realize the benefit of synthetic oil under daily driving conditions? Will his oil temperatures ever reach the point where there’d be a clear benefit between conventional and synthetic oils? Will the minimal deposits he accumulates, from his occasional spike of oil temperature, if any, be seriously detrimental to his engine and significantly reduce his engine life?
Back to the fuel efficiency argument. I do not deny the benefits you stated. Synthetic oils do have a more linear viscosity and should, theoretically, give better fuel efficiency at lower temperatures. Aside from those who reside in sub-zero climates, where synthetic oil is highly recommended by OEMs already, for the rest of us, are the fuel efficiency improvements noticeable? Or are they so miniscule that they can easily be lost by other uncontrollable variables?
Please expand on your “better” additive system regarding synthetic oils. I suppose that its possible for synthetic oils to contain a better additive package, but to what extent? Doesn’t the API already set fairly tight limits on the amounts of the primary anti-wear additives? Will Joe Blow see a realized benefit compared to draining his conventional oil at the OEM prescribed service interval?
You also mention owners keeping their vehicles beyond 100k miles. I can think of many cars that I know of, right now, that have well over 200k miles, some even 300k miles, running on the recommended 5w30 oil and generic filters, and the oil wasn’t always replaced on time either.
Lastly, I think this discussion will be greatly affected if we do not stand on the same page regarding service intervals. I’m comparing synthetic to conventional oils, provided that both are drained at OEM specified intervals. In other words, synthetic oils shouldn’t be providing a cost advantage here, it’s all about the benefits.
But the feel good factor is certainly legitimate. That’s the motive for many of our actions in life, isn’t it?
Great discussion nonetheless, Tom, and thanks!
Thatwouldbegreat:
Saturn 1.9L engines work fine with conventional oil. On SaturnFans, we have many Saturn 1.9L SOHC and DOHC motors in excess of over 200,000 miles running on 5w30 dino and generic filters. Some even have over 300,000 or 400,000 miles. The key is to change the oil and filter at the recommended service interval and keep the oil topped up…which is extremely important on Saturn 1.9L engines as they burn ungodly amounts of oil.
The Toyota 3.0L V6 engines have never had sludge problems if the oil was changed on time. They were exceptionally vulnerable to owner negligence so it was adamant that the oil be done every 5k miles, or less. My selling dealers have yet to have a single case of oil problems with the 3.0L Toyota when the oil/filter were changed every 5k miles.
Thanks for the great reply. There are several points you brought up that I’d like to address.
I’m merely questioning the benefits of synthetics, in applications where the OEM did not originally recommend the use of synthetic oil. As for service intervals, I’m questioning the advantages of synthetic oil compared to conventional oil, provided that both oils are drained per OEM drain intervals, which can be as low as 2000 miles to as high as 12000 miles in some cases.
The benefits you discussed regarding oil breakdown are certainly valid, at high temperatures. This is the exact reason why GM recommends the usage of and factory fills their track ready models with synthetic oil. And GM also recommends the usage of synthetic oil in extremely cold climates for the improved cold temperature performance. However, for Joe Blow, how can he realize the benefit of synthetic oil under daily driving conditions? Will his oil temperatures ever reach the point where there’d be a clear benefit between conventional and synthetic oils? Will the minimal deposits he accumulates, from his occasional spike of oil temperature, if any, be seriously detrimental to his engine and significantly reduce his engine life?
Back to the fuel efficiency argument. I do not deny the benefits you stated. Synthetic oils do have a more linear viscosity and should, theoretically, give better fuel efficiency at lower temperatures. Aside from those who reside in sub-zero climates, where synthetic oil is highly recommended by OEMs already, for the rest of us, are the fuel efficiency improvements noticeable? Or are they so miniscule that they can easily be lost by other uncontrollable variables?
Please expand on your “better” additive system regarding synthetic oils. I suppose that its possible for synthetic oils to contain a better additive package, but to what extent? Doesn’t the API already set fairly tight limits on the amounts of the primary anti-wear additives? Will Joe Blow see a realized benefit compared to draining his conventional oil at the OEM prescribed service interval?
You also mention owners keeping their vehicles beyond 100k miles. I can think of many cars that I know of, right now, that have well over 200k miles, some even 300k miles, running on the recommended 5w30 oil and generic filters, and the oil wasn’t always replaced on time either.
Lastly, I think this discussion will be greatly affected if we do not stand on the same page regarding service intervals. I’m comparing synthetic to conventional oils, provided that both are drained at OEM specified intervals. In other words, synthetic oils shouldn’t be providing a cost advantage here, it’s all about the benefits.
But the feel good factor is certainly legitimate. That’s the motive for many of our actions in life, isn’t it?
Great discussion nonetheless, Tom, and thanks!
Thatwouldbegreat:
Saturn 1.9L engines work fine with conventional oil. On SaturnFans, we have many Saturn 1.9L SOHC and DOHC motors in excess of over 200,000 miles running on 5w30 dino and generic filters. Some even have over 300,000 or 400,000 miles. The key is to change the oil and filter at the recommended service interval and keep the oil topped up…which is extremely important on Saturn 1.9L engines as they burn ungodly amounts of oil.
The Toyota 3.0L V6 engines have never had sludge problems if the oil was changed on time. They were exceptionally vulnerable to owner negligence so it was adamant that the oil be done every 5k miles, or less. My selling dealers have yet to have a single case of oil problems with the 3.0L Toyota when the oil/filter were changed every 5k miles.
"Some normally aspirated engines like Subaru H-4, or Honda 4 cylinders can make 300K with conventional oil at 3K to 5K OCI's. Some engines are just good or lucky designs that are easy on oil and have few weaknesses."
Our Honda 4 cyl only made 120k miles, but in retrospect it wasn't surprising as it was worked hard. One needs to consider load, terrain, and driving conditions when making statements about what does well and what doesn't.
Once the engine has been attended to one needs to make sure that the typical auto tranny will last too, where I'll be considering a switch to full synthetics.
Our Honda 4 cyl only made 120k miles, but in retrospect it wasn't surprising as it was worked hard. One needs to consider load, terrain, and driving conditions when making statements about what does well and what doesn't.
Once the engine has been attended to one needs to make sure that the typical auto tranny will last too, where I'll be considering a switch to full synthetics.
Critic, I understand a little about Saturns and the oil a consumption issues. I just helped an employee Seafoam his DOHC and now he's trying a 'thick' Castrol HM 5W-30 instead of the Motorcraft 5W-30 he had been using. And that motor is at 162K.
His oil consumption was 1 quart / 250 miles. Soon I'll know if we made any improvment
I certainly have read about enough people who lost Saturn engines at 40K and lost the rebuilt after another 40K...or similar bad ownership experiences.
Not everyone is car savvy, or even interested in cars, or lucky enough to find good advice on forums like Saturnfans and learn about MMO soaks to address the service needs of their older Saturns.
I don't know whether Redline oil alone would have helped the Saturn motors...I think we all know that these motors needed attention to their specific needs. I think that synthetic oil might have helped a little while the problems were being sorted out.
If nothing else the logic I might have followed is that " this Saturn engine is using oil with low NOACK synthetic
" , and moved on to the forums, and talked to Saturn experts, and used other diagnostics.
I wouldn't have been sucked in by the ' 1/qt per x miles is normal oil consumption' nonsense that Saturn dealerships told people.
As far as the Toyotas and sludge, again I'd argue that knowing human nature synthetic oil might have helped the owners who went past 5000 miles.
I knew better that to run my children's new cars with conventional oil and 3750 or 5000 mile intervals. I sleep a lot better knowing that they have to change every 7000 miles and if they missed by 50% and they changed at 10,500 miles that they engine would probably still be fine.
And the synthetic oils don't evaporate as much, so I don't have to worry about them checking the oil level as much as I'd like.
My friend's garage gets lots of new clients who bring in new and expensive cars that went 12,000 miles without an oil change using quick lube oil. Naturally the reason the cars come in is engine noise.
Sometimes these engines can be saved, and sometimes they can't.
I'd bet that some of the best synthetic oils might have helped to save these owner's from their carelessness.
His oil consumption was 1 quart / 250 miles. Soon I'll know if we made any improvment
I certainly have read about enough people who lost Saturn engines at 40K and lost the rebuilt after another 40K...or similar bad ownership experiences.
Not everyone is car savvy, or even interested in cars, or lucky enough to find good advice on forums like Saturnfans and learn about MMO soaks to address the service needs of their older Saturns.
I don't know whether Redline oil alone would have helped the Saturn motors...I think we all know that these motors needed attention to their specific needs. I think that synthetic oil might have helped a little while the problems were being sorted out.
If nothing else the logic I might have followed is that " this Saturn engine is using oil with low NOACK synthetic
" , and moved on to the forums, and talked to Saturn experts, and used other diagnostics.
I wouldn't have been sucked in by the ' 1/qt per x miles is normal oil consumption' nonsense that Saturn dealerships told people.
As far as the Toyotas and sludge, again I'd argue that knowing human nature synthetic oil might have helped the owners who went past 5000 miles.
I knew better that to run my children's new cars with conventional oil and 3750 or 5000 mile intervals. I sleep a lot better knowing that they have to change every 7000 miles and if they missed by 50% and they changed at 10,500 miles that they engine would probably still be fine.
And the synthetic oils don't evaporate as much, so I don't have to worry about them checking the oil level as much as I'd like.
My friend's garage gets lots of new clients who bring in new and expensive cars that went 12,000 miles without an oil change using quick lube oil. Naturally the reason the cars come in is engine noise.
Sometimes these engines can be saved, and sometimes they can't.
I'd bet that some of the best synthetic oils might have helped to save these owner's from their carelessness.
Probably within a couple of years since he mentions API SM oils.
I lost an modded Acura 1.8 at 162K to a head gasket failure....that was a Mobil 1 5W-30 motor that I drove as hard as possible in extreme heat, with full loads, to and past redline constantly.
The engine ran beautifully and barely used a drop of oil.
So synthetic had it on track for a very long life in tough conditions, but I made a mistake in coolant choices and maintenance program. I don't know if I could have caught this problem or not, but it sure wasn't the oils fault, it was my fault.
The engine ran beautifully and barely used a drop of oil.
So synthetic had it on track for a very long life in tough conditions, but I made a mistake in coolant choices and maintenance program. I don't know if I could have caught this problem or not, but it sure wasn't the oils fault, it was my fault.
First no one can prove anything to anyone unless they are open to accepting new ideas and paradigms as truth. You are the only one that can decide to accept information or disreguard it!I have to ask myself if your pitch is geniune or just a way to get a good (friendly)fight going.
To answere one of your questions about deposit control. When have you ever seen a sludged up engine running synthetics? Many on here doing 10,000 mile OCI's with synthetics have engines that look as clean or cleaner then dino engines doing 3000-5000 mile oil changes.As a former Automotive Tech.I can tell you right now that when you tear into a high millage engine you can tell if it was run on synthetic or dino. You can also tell how freq. the vechile got it's oil changed. Anyplace that their are two parts comeing together carbon,sludge and varnish will build up.All of the gaskets and seals trap deposits along them as well. In an engine that was run 100% on synthetic the parts have very little build up and most of it will wipe off with no need for any solvents at all. The parts fall of the car. In a dino engine it is just the oposite the parts have to be pryed or hammered off because of all the deposits acting like glue and holding the parts in place. You always need solvents and some times abrasives too.Back when laqured paper gaskets were still used cars that ran synthetics you could often reuse the old gasket were most times the dino ones were destroyed trying to get the part off because part of the gasket would stick and the rest would not so it would tear.
Normaly most synthetics give you a beefier additive package and use higher quality additives as not all moly,calcium,ZDDP additives are the same! In terms of film strengths PAO's are not much better then dino but the ester base stocks are drasticly better this is one reason why Redlines oils have such high film strength for their viscosity.
Any oil that is less volitile is going to leave fewer deposits behind in your engine.If you put butter in a skillet and turn the heat up it will scorch to the botom of the skillet and leave deposits behind. If I ran peanut oil at the same temp that the butter was scourching at it would not leave any deposits behind and would not scorch either.Then if your oil does scorch do you want an additive package that can barley handle it or one with plenty of reserve.
As far as metal wear is concerned it is all about HTHS,Additive package and oil flow. If you have the right combination of those above elements your wear metals will be low reguardless of weather it is a dino or synthetic base stock.
Back when my father and I ran dino he changed his oil with Castrol GTX 20W50 every 1500-1800 miles. When I bought the vechile off him I too was useing Castrol GTX 20W50 but changed every 2500 miles.We even ran the atomic orange can of death back then. I tore the engine done at 80,000 miles to blue print it and ballance it for raceing. The entire inside of the engine had heavy varnish on it and the parts were glued to the block with varnish and carbon. I used a rag soaked in B12 Chemtool to clean the entire block and all of the parts and a car wash too. When I took it to the machine shop they called me an hour latter accuseing me of trying to set them up. I said "I do not know what you are talking about?" They said I had droped off a brand new service block and that everything spec.ed out like new. I assured them I was not trying to catch them cheating me or anything like that. I had to drive the owner out to my house and show him the truck minus the engine. He thought it was some type of sting operation like 60 minutes and Nightline do. My point is that with 80,000 miles of driveing this block and all of it's parts measured out to like new spec.'s with dino oil. If I had not cleaned it off so well the shop would never have accused me of this. Fast forward slightly less then 20 years and when we had to tear into my dads truck it had 120,000 miles on it and needed to have the ballance shaft chain tensioner replaced. His engine was spotless inside the timeing cover the cylinder head the valve cover all spotless. He does about 9000 miles every 4 months and runs synthetic mostly M1. When we sprayed the the head,pistons and oil galleys with B12 we just barley managed to get about 1/16 of an inch of B12 and carbon to drain down into the oil pan. So their was not much in there at all even in the places we could not see. The oil pan itself was again spotless.He drives his 4x4 compact pickup hard and works it hard too. To date all of his valve train shims spec. out to like new except one. One one we had to use the smallest shim to bring it back to the others but it was still within the spec. it was close though to being out of spec. His timeing chains and sprockets also were in like new shape but we changed them while we were in their.
Now what I have said is anything but scientific but it is based on my proffessional and private experinces.You would have to tear into a couple of thousand engines to see the drastic difference it can make.
To answere one of your questions about deposit control. When have you ever seen a sludged up engine running synthetics? Many on here doing 10,000 mile OCI's with synthetics have engines that look as clean or cleaner then dino engines doing 3000-5000 mile oil changes.As a former Automotive Tech.I can tell you right now that when you tear into a high millage engine you can tell if it was run on synthetic or dino. You can also tell how freq. the vechile got it's oil changed. Anyplace that their are two parts comeing together carbon,sludge and varnish will build up.All of the gaskets and seals trap deposits along them as well. In an engine that was run 100% on synthetic the parts have very little build up and most of it will wipe off with no need for any solvents at all. The parts fall of the car. In a dino engine it is just the oposite the parts have to be pryed or hammered off because of all the deposits acting like glue and holding the parts in place. You always need solvents and some times abrasives too.Back when laqured paper gaskets were still used cars that ran synthetics you could often reuse the old gasket were most times the dino ones were destroyed trying to get the part off because part of the gasket would stick and the rest would not so it would tear.
Normaly most synthetics give you a beefier additive package and use higher quality additives as not all moly,calcium,ZDDP additives are the same! In terms of film strengths PAO's are not much better then dino but the ester base stocks are drasticly better this is one reason why Redlines oils have such high film strength for their viscosity.
Any oil that is less volitile is going to leave fewer deposits behind in your engine.If you put butter in a skillet and turn the heat up it will scorch to the botom of the skillet and leave deposits behind. If I ran peanut oil at the same temp that the butter was scourching at it would not leave any deposits behind and would not scorch either.Then if your oil does scorch do you want an additive package that can barley handle it or one with plenty of reserve.
As far as metal wear is concerned it is all about HTHS,Additive package and oil flow. If you have the right combination of those above elements your wear metals will be low reguardless of weather it is a dino or synthetic base stock.
Back when my father and I ran dino he changed his oil with Castrol GTX 20W50 every 1500-1800 miles. When I bought the vechile off him I too was useing Castrol GTX 20W50 but changed every 2500 miles.We even ran the atomic orange can of death back then. I tore the engine done at 80,000 miles to blue print it and ballance it for raceing. The entire inside of the engine had heavy varnish on it and the parts were glued to the block with varnish and carbon. I used a rag soaked in B12 Chemtool to clean the entire block and all of the parts and a car wash too. When I took it to the machine shop they called me an hour latter accuseing me of trying to set them up. I said "I do not know what you are talking about?" They said I had droped off a brand new service block and that everything spec.ed out like new. I assured them I was not trying to catch them cheating me or anything like that. I had to drive the owner out to my house and show him the truck minus the engine. He thought it was some type of sting operation like 60 minutes and Nightline do. My point is that with 80,000 miles of driveing this block and all of it's parts measured out to like new spec.'s with dino oil. If I had not cleaned it off so well the shop would never have accused me of this. Fast forward slightly less then 20 years and when we had to tear into my dads truck it had 120,000 miles on it and needed to have the ballance shaft chain tensioner replaced. His engine was spotless inside the timeing cover the cylinder head the valve cover all spotless. He does about 9000 miles every 4 months and runs synthetic mostly M1. When we sprayed the the head,pistons and oil galleys with B12 we just barley managed to get about 1/16 of an inch of B12 and carbon to drain down into the oil pan. So their was not much in there at all even in the places we could not see. The oil pan itself was again spotless.He drives his 4x4 compact pickup hard and works it hard too. To date all of his valve train shims spec. out to like new except one. One one we had to use the smallest shim to bring it back to the others but it was still within the spec. it was close though to being out of spec. His timeing chains and sprockets also were in like new shape but we changed them while we were in their.
Now what I have said is anything but scientific but it is based on my proffessional and private experinces.You would have to tear into a couple of thousand engines to see the drastic difference it can make.
Once again:
High temperature applications
Extreme Cold
Extended drains
....otherwise NO. Realize that most SM oils are Group III based so technicall all oils are synthetic.
Critic wouldn't be even debating the issue if Group I's were still being used and people were pushing 5-7k mile drains. Next question...
High temperature applications
Extreme Cold
Extended drains
....otherwise NO. Realize that most SM oils are Group III based so technicall all oils are synthetic.
Critic wouldn't be even debating the issue if Group I's were still being used and people were pushing 5-7k mile drains. Next question...
What you all have witnessed over the last 3 years is the closing of the gap that once existed between your conventional oils (Group I's) vs your 100% Synthetics (Group IV/V). While Group III's are true synthetics to many, they are close in performance.
"The Toyota 3.0L V6 engines have never had sludge problems if the oil was changed on time. They were exceptionally vulnerable to owner negligence so it was adamant that the oil be done every 5k miles, or less. My selling dealers have yet to have a single case of oil problems with the 3.0L Toyota when the oil/filter were changed every 5k miles."
Aren't you being less than completely honest ? Didn't Toyota change the oil change interval to 5000 miles AFTER the the sludging problem ?
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=&did=566
Faced with a consumer revolt over low mileage engine failures caused by oil sludge buildup, Toyota has begun to notify 3.3 million owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with 5SFE 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engines that it will cover the cost of sludge-related repairs for eight years from date of initial sale.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=122&did=1113
To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles on its vehicles. It also has given lessees incentives to maintain their vehicles properly.
Aren't you being less than completely honest ? Didn't Toyota change the oil change interval to 5000 miles AFTER the the sludging problem ?
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=&did=566
Faced with a consumer revolt over low mileage engine failures caused by oil sludge buildup, Toyota has begun to notify 3.3 million owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with 5SFE 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engines that it will cover the cost of sludge-related repairs for eight years from date of initial sale.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=122&did=1113
To help prevent sludge, Toyota in 2003 shortened the recommended oil-change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles on its vehicles. It also has given lessees incentives to maintain their vehicles properly.
Synthetic oil gives fewer oil changes and cleaning abilities. Will it make the engine last longer, no but cost efectiveness will be cheaper in the long run.
Anybody got any coffee?
Convincing argument for using better oils. I think that we are lucky that so many new 'conventional' oils are so much improved and are really severely hydrocracked synthetic-like Group II, GroupII+, and Group III blends that probably have good additive packages.
In a way most modern oils are synthetic, or nearly synthetic oils and the answer to critic's question is not black and white.
Maybe the question should be: What oils and OCI's are good for my engine and driving style and environment? And what special needs or problem areas does my engine have?
Do 7500 mile oil changes in a known sludger with synthetic and convention oils. Then get back with me.
"Maybe the question should be: What oils and OCI's are good for my engine and driving style and environment? And what special needs or problem areas does my engine have?"
I agree.
(But to make a dogmatic stand I'll say that regardless of what you find out use synthetic anyway :^)
I agree.
(But to make a dogmatic stand I'll say that regardless of what you find out use synthetic anyway :^)
What oils and OCI's are good for my engine and driving style and environment? And what special needs or problem areas does my engine have?
That should be a sticky for new users to ask.
That should be a sticky for new users to ask.
Uhh, no. The service interval for the sludge-prone (whatever) Toyota 2.2L I4 and 3.0L V6 engines had always been 5k miles for severe service, and 7.5k miles for normal service. The problem was with owners who used the wrong maintenance schedule for their driving conditions, which ultimately caused issues. If the correct maintenance schedule was followed, there were no problems at all.
Toyota did eliminate the 7.5k service interval altogether beginning in 2005. They went to a 6-mo/5k service interval for all driving conditions.
If 7500 miles was the recommended service interval for my particular driving conditions, you bet that I’d be follow it and use conventional oils.
All of the sludge problems came from owners who were not punctual with vehicle maintenance, and did not use the correct service schedule for their driving conditions.
when someone says to prove something. they already have their mind made up. when you do porve it to that person. they always come back with BUT what about this senerio.
if you change the both oils at the same OIC which is 3K to 5K. then no there is no real advantage really to go with syn. I thought this was already said awhile ago by many people on here.
if you keep your oil changed regularly and keep the engine in tip top condition. I dont see why dino cant serve the engine well for its whole intire life. people have shown pic of engines that ran nothing but dino in it and was spotless.
I think synthetics are a lil more forgiving for people that tends to forget to check their oils and change them.
but you already have your mind made up and dont see why you posted this in the first place. seems like you just wanted to make a lil fight on the board. like another person suggested.
to the person with the 4.7 dodge. the 4.7 does not have a sludge problem. know many peopel with them (including me) never had a issue of sludge. many of these people have over 100,000 miles on them. over half used syn (either M-1 or amsoil) other half runs regular dino.
if you change the both oils at the same OIC which is 3K to 5K. then no there is no real advantage really to go with syn. I thought this was already said awhile ago by many people on here.
if you keep your oil changed regularly and keep the engine in tip top condition. I dont see why dino cant serve the engine well for its whole intire life. people have shown pic of engines that ran nothing but dino in it and was spotless.
I think synthetics are a lil more forgiving for people that tends to forget to check their oils and change them.
but you already have your mind made up and dont see why you posted this in the first place. seems like you just wanted to make a lil fight on the board. like another person suggested.
to the person with the 4.7 dodge. the 4.7 does not have a sludge problem. know many peopel with them (including me) never had a issue of sludge. many of these people have over 100,000 miles on them. over half used syn (either M-1 or amsoil) other half runs regular dino.
Not looking for a fight. Just looking for evidence to prove the unsupported opinions that always circulate this board regarding certain topics.
I'm glad that the Toyota sludge problem was mentioned in this thead. I have a '97 Camry 4-Cyl that is an acknowledged sludger, but not as bad as the V6. I bought it new, and changed the oil myself every 3 months (~2500 miles) with Conventional Pennzoil 10W-30 until Apr-2004, when folks on this board and a Toyota mechanic convinced me that Synth was the way to go for this engine. 2.5 years later I really agree that Synth is better for this engine due to heat stress from the head. I believe that my engine was on the verge of sludging in the summers in mostly in-town driving, but of course I don't know how close. The Toyota engines of that generation have several design issues that make Synth a better choice for thermal margin. Perhaps the newer SM Conventiional oils stand-up better to the thermal stress of these engines, but I don't have any info on that.
My 4-Cyl is a rather tight engine, and it sits outside all year, so there is a perceived start-up benefit on the coldest days with Synth. My casual observation is that Synth allows the starter to spin as easily with no oil-pan heater as Conventional oil with an oil-pan heater.
I agree with Buster - it appears that the historic gap between Conventional and Synth has narrowed significantly recently. Overall, I think that this is good news for everyone, and allows people a broader choice high-quality oils at a lower cost. However, I plan to keep my Camry on Synth until it is proven that I can safely return to Conventional, but I don't expect to see proof for these obsolete engines that were discontinued after the 2001 model year - life has moved on. Perhaps the high-heat-stress VW engines will provide some useful data!
My 4-Cyl is a rather tight engine, and it sits outside all year, so there is a perceived start-up benefit on the coldest days with Synth. My casual observation is that Synth allows the starter to spin as easily with no oil-pan heater as Conventional oil with an oil-pan heater.
I agree with Buster - it appears that the historic gap between Conventional and Synth has narrowed significantly recently. Overall, I think that this is good news for everyone, and allows people a broader choice high-quality oils at a lower cost. However, I plan to keep my Camry on Synth until it is proven that I can safely return to Conventional, but I don't expect to see proof for these obsolete engines that were discontinued after the 2001 model year - life has moved on. Perhaps the high-heat-stress VW engines will provide some useful data!
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