Private Ownership or Stock Ownership better?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
8,679
Location
Michigan
I was thinking the other day about this and which is better for the U.S.

A private owner has less pressure to make profits as he/she does not have to make stockholders happy. Maybe a small company is better as it can be closer to its employees and their needs.

Have we sold this country down the river with all the company buyouts and mergers?
 
Last edited:
As a person who lost a job through a large corporate merger 18 years ago, I see it as the necessary change in the order of things. I never re-entered the corporate world and given the circumstances I would have made similar decisions had I been the CEO.

As technology changes efficiencies many jobs become redundant. If an inefficient, non competitive economy is what you want just look at the government. The technological revolution did little to downsize the number of government employees and you have to ask, " How is that possible?"

The DMV is a much more efficient organization in NYS. You can renew registrations online, the wait lines at the offices are shorter. The state tax department doesn't mail out tax forms to corporatiions, you must download them or file online. The shifting of a lot of the clerical, mindless activities has been moved away from the the state. But where have the savings been realized?

The same questions can be asked of our colleges and universities. Why the heck have the tuition costs far outpaced inflation. I don't believe the compesation of professors has increased that much, unless we've added so many useless courses to the curriculum that the number of professors has grown exponentially.

For the life of me I don't understand why very few question these things?
 
BTW, both companies are private. The small and the large. The small operator just has less to work with, He has a myriad of governmental regulation and requirement to deal with and must educate himself on such matterrs or pay a substantial sum to another to deal with them. This comes off the bottom line which usually means substantially less for the owners of the company which may be very few and hence more painful.

The large corporation, unfortunately,, has a board of directors which should answer to all shareholders. The board is usually in bed with the CEO who is hardly held accountable. The board is often a rubber stamp and are likely to lose their seats on the board if they do otherwise. These boards know little of the day to day operations of the company but are often compensated better than many of the workers without whom the company would fail.
 
Private entrepreneurship or publicly owned corporations have their own advantages and disadvantages.

One thing to consider is the scale of the business. Large scale privately owned companies are usually owned by private equity investors. And believe me, this type of ownership is one of the worst where they "clean up" the balance sheet (basically, implement massive layoffs), make it profitable for a short term and then sell or do an IPO.
 
To best answer this you should find some large companies where both the burdens and efficiencies of scale apply.

UPS= private
FedEx= Public

Ford= mostly private/family owned
GM= public/gov't/IPO

I tend to believe a sole proprietorship tries hardest, followed by partnerships then family businesses. The nepotism of extended family businesses might add some cluelessness that would be sorted out by another hiring process.

With stocks I worry about some d-bag constantly screwing with the books, insider trading, and becoming complacent in a competitive world. However, I feel large-caps get significant advantages from "the man" and hedge my bets with some money in a S&P 500 index fund.
wink.gif
 
I guess what I don't care for in a publicly owned business, is that all to often they are forced to continually grow. Make a bigger profit, more sales, better numbers all the time. It's simply not enough for them to remain the same, even if they are profitable. Share holders don't like to see stagnation. This forces business to make decisions that I believe to be detrimental to our economy, like moving production overseas for example. They want a bigger company for a bigger dividend. In a kind a conspiracy theory way, I believe it encourages "separation of the classes" - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

In my own highly skewed world, I think the best thing would be to have lots of privately owned business and industry with little to no outsourcing. It would employ all manner of U.S. citizens, pay them a good wage and to reciprocate, they in turn would spend good money on a domestic product and support our industry. We would also impose an import tariff and tax penalties for outsourcing overseas and across the borders.

As it is now, we (the consumer in general) demand cheap, forcing business to meet their demands while staying profitable and still growing in the process. The only way to do that is to automate (not entirely bad), lay off, outsource and use substandard materials. We need to get out of that mentality and start spending money locally on a good domestic product.

So, I guess to answer the op's question, I feel that private ownership is ultimately better.

My apologies for the rant......
 
Well by what metric do you judge a CEO? Would you allow him to stagnate? If you gave him (and yourself) stock options wouldn't you be happy if he could make them cash out this quarter?

There are "value" stocks like P&G that are hanging tough making the sundries of everyday life. They don't need to grow and pay decent dividends.
 
I love it when people disparage the stock market. The one thing that has consistently increased people's wealth and allowed them to retire at all is looked at with hate and disdain.

It's also funny that people don't realize the "evil" stock market is what allows ordinary (not just the "evil" rich) people to be owners and participate in the "means of production".

And here is a life changing statement for some: Businesses exist to make a profit! Yes, that's right..."evil" profit. Just as you do when you go to work and actually have the gall to demand being paid for your time when working for someone else, so too do the owners of businesses want to make a profit for their time/labor. And they are taking a risk by employing you and buying equipment, having to deal with regulations, not have a good sales month...

But that's no excuse for them making more than an unskilled laborer...none at all.
18.gif
 
Quote:
The one thing that has consistently increased people's wealth and allowed them to retire at all is looked at with hate and disdain.


Yeah, everyone's 401k money really paid off in spades.

Do you REALLY believe the words you put in the text box. You keep leaving out "SOME" in that "wealthy" vomit you keep selling as sweet water.

Everyone's pension money was in the market. It swelled. It crashed.

Technical corrections. They tend to be social realignments too.
 
Quote:
Everyone's pension money was in the market. It swelled. It crashed.

Still a FAR better return on the money than the governments retirement "program".
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
I love it when people disparage the stock market. The one thing that has consistently increased people's wealth and allowed them to retire at all is looked at with hate and disdain.

It's also funny that people don't realize the "evil" stock market is what allows ordinary (not just the "evil" rich) people to be owners and participate in the "means of production".

And here is a life changing statement for some: Businesses exist to make a profit! Yes, that's right..."evil" profit. Just as you do when you go to work and actually have the gall to demand being paid for your time when working for someone else, so too do the owners of businesses want to make a profit for their time/labor. And they are taking a risk by employing you and buying equipment, having to deal with regulations, not have a good sales month...

But that's no excuse for them making more than an unskilled laborer...none at all.
18.gif



I think you misunderstood my post. I never said that CEO's or business owners shouldn't make more money than an unskilled laborer. I just think that it's bunk when a laborer gets laid off because some companies are forced to continually evolve and grow, or out of greed, they move production across borders or overseas.

I truly feel that we should focus on keeping all of our work and products here...
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Everyone's pension money was in the market. It swelled. It crashed.

Still a FAR better return on the money than the governments retirement "program".


rationalization for having everyone's pension money in the market instead of tagged to the company's assets. That was such a coup.

I know some geezer CEO's smacked each other on the back for that mastery in pulling one over on labor.

It's amazing how diabolical ....hmm..if something would otherwise be criminal, you slowly and quietly make it legal. Then it's no a crime to rip people off.

Personally I think that they're still thieves.
 
Quote:
rationalization for having everyone's pension money in the market instead of tagged to the company's assets.

I take you don't believe in diversification? Having all of your pension or retirement in one company is not necessarily a good idea.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
rationalization for having everyone's pension money in the market instead of tagged to the company's assets.

I take you don't believe in diversification? Having all of your pension or retirement in one company is not necessarily a good idea.


It worked fine until it was turned from a shelter to an asset. After companies had to move those numbers to the other side of the balance sheet, then "whomever" set forth straight away to allow those pensions to be "fractionally funded". In essence, not backed by company assets to assure them.

The defined benefit pension was killed. Companies who had them could liquidate, give golden parachutes to their Lorenzo company wholesaler, and leave the tax payer, in the form of the pension guarantee corp, to foot some of the shortfall of the for profit company not being able to meet its contractual obligations. The pensioner may have lost 60% of their negotiated pensions and benefits.

Divesting the company of legacy costs came into vogue. That essentially meant that everyone's pension was for the most part a "gamble". They all proved out to be one. Pension funds swelled ..and so did the market. Massive mutual funds "created" demand by merely using .000001% of their assets....etc...etc.

Basically you had the lion's share of most American's future security "gambled" but often ..most often, they weren't the ones placing the bets.

It was offering herds of lambs for the slaughter. All choke pointed through the financiers and money changers. The demographics were absolutely perfect for giving the illusion of a secure future through growth.
 
I don't really see any difference between workers paying into Soc. Security vs working harder to increase stock values except that the former bypasses shenigans and profits for Wallstreet. Soc. Security was actually designed by moderate industrialist wanting to find a system that was more sound than their own pension plans. Let me see if I can find the link. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/social_security.html. It's a little long but pretty interesting.
 
Thank you for posting the link. I didn't get a chance to read it all but his conclusions at the end are quite comical considering SS is already in the red.

He also seemed to leave out some rather important facts:
Quote:
The Supreme Court disagreed, saying "To engraft upon the Social Security system a concept of 'accrued property rights' would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustment to ever changing conditions which it demands." The Court went on to say, "It is apparent that the non-contractual interest of an employee covered by the [Social Security] Act cannot be soundly analogized to that of the holder of an annuity, whose right to benefits is bottomed on his contractual premium payments."

And:
Quote:
The Court's decision was not surprising. In an earlier case, Helvering v. Davis (1937), the Court had ruled that Social Security was not a contributory insurance program, saying, "The proceeds of both the employee and employer taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like any other internal revenue generally, and are not earmarked in any way."

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5776
So as we can see, according to the Supreme Court, SS is not old-age insurance at all, there is no trust fund, and you have no right to the money you have paid in.

SS (and Medicare) simply take money from the young (still working) class at gun point and hand it to the voting (elderly) class so as to:
1: buy the votes of those that vote the most.

2: reduce the spending and saving power of the young so as to make them more dependent upon government.

3: reduce the amount of money transferred to the next generation so as to keep them more dependent on government.

So as you can see, it's much better to have private control of your own money vs. having public control over it.

Dave Ramsey fans know that he advocates putting 15% of your income into retirement accounts. SS is 12.4% being put down a drain when it could be building you wealth and people would be far better off than with SS.
 
Well you put your private ownership theory spin on everything, but as the article explained the private pensions were unsound and failing and it was moderate business leaders who designed the old age insurance. How many people lose their shirt in the stock market due to shenanigans and their 401K have not gained any real value?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom