Primacy MXV4 195/60R15 88V - Tire Rack Flubs One

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
9,520
Location
Scruffy City
Cliff notes version: They eventually did the right thing, but I had to call Michelin on them first.

The weekend was alloted to a major service on the Civic to include new tires and wheels (LX Wheels). I took advantage of the rebate deal again and ordered the tires to arrive on Friday so they could be mounted and balanced. When they arrived I took them to my dealer with the new wheels for mounting and balancing. When I picked them up they let me know that even after the best match they could get the road force was 10LBS, 26LBS, 27LBS, and 34LBS and they were quite concerned that I wouldn't be happy with the ride. They thought perhaps they would improve with a few heat cycles.

I brought them home and continued my work on the major service. When I was done for the evening and got cleaned up I sent my sales rep a message telling him about the road force and what the dealer had said about heat cycles. I said I would call him If I needed warranty assistance.

Sat work continued and everything was done except the brake fluid change. Got my mityvac out and discovered it would not pull a vacuum. Figured I'd stick the tires on and take a run down the expressway and head to the box store for a new mityvac pump. While at the store I received a call form Lainey@tire rack asking If I "had done anything to the tires", I said well I put them on and drove the car for the first time. She said she would send me 2 more but not to heat cycle them any more or "we can't do anything". At this point I am thinking I need 3 tires but don't have the numbers written down.

Get back home (tires do vibrate noticeably and "thump") finish my brake fluid change and clean up. Still thinking about tires. Go back and review my e-mail and notes and realize I have typoed the road force on the "26" to "16". Immediately send message stating my typo to Lainey, figure 3 tires should be no problem.

Monday morning rolls around and I get an E-mail saying 26 is "decent". (OK 26 is decent but 27 warrants replacement?) Go to dealer, talk to tech. Tech says "you only have one good tire on that car" and goes onto say on a passenger car tire 18 is the limit, he likes to see less. Send message to tire rack outlining this.

Tuesday morning no response for TR.

I call Michelin. Michelin tech answers and I ask "What would you consider the maximum road force on a 15" passenger car tire" he says somewhere around 21LBS depends on the speed rating and particulars, whats up", clearly he knew something was up. So I tell him what I've outlined above and he says 26 is too much particularly since I know it vibrates. He doesn't seem to see why replacing it is an issue and he sets up a case. I says they will make sure I'm happy, says to have dealer contact them.

Call TR, tell them conversation with Michelin. Brittany says she will call them. I point out that I need this tire tomorrow and this should have been handled Monday. Brittany says she will call me back, but does not see that being a problem.

She calls back about an hour later says tire will be shipped overnight.

Get 3 tires today and have them installed, new tires are 4LBS, 6LBS, 7LBS. Car rides great.

Another thing that I was a little irked about is that they sent one tire in the original batch that was one week earlier than the other 3. I didn't notice until late sat that the warranty card listed 2 and 2. The earlier tire was the one with 10LBS. I suspected a bad batch the following week. However the new 3 were the same week as the bad 3.

I am 100% happy with Michelin and 95% with TR. I think where TR is concerned that:

  • I should not have had to call Michelin to get the tire replaced.
  • That for what these cost the date codes should match.


Things that I'd like to hear opinions on:

  • Is there an industry consensus on what sort of road force is acceptable?
  • Does road force work less well on H and above rated tires (Michelin rep said they find this to be true)
  • Does heat cycling a new tire generally improve road force? (Apparently this is GM tire store position)


MXV4.jpg


MXV41.jpg


MXV42.jpg
 
huh.. this is the first time i've ever even heard(well, seen), the term road force... what's it mean??

hopefully my 4 pirellis from tire rack that go on in the morning are well matched....
 
Originally Posted By: edwardh1
where were they manufactured?


USA

Originally Posted By: earlyre
huh.. this is the first time i've ever even heard(well, seen), the term road force... what's it mean??


http://gsp9700.com/
 
I have used inner city, store front tire shops to mount and balance my tires for years. The 'techs' may not speak english but I've never had a wobble, shimmy, shake etc..I'm sure their balance machines aren't the latest technology (Roadforce) but for $15 a tire M&B I'm happy. Of course my tires are always 'All Season' or snow tires in the OE size so there's not much to go wrong....
 
Cliff Notes Response:

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Is there an industry consensus on what sort of road force is acceptable?

No. The problem is that different vehicles have different levels of sensitivity. There is no "one size fits all"

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Does road force work less well on H and above rated tires (Michelin rep said they find this to be true)

No. Tire uniformity is tire uniformity. It might be that what the Michelin rep was alluding to was they have more difficulty with H and higher speed rated tires - and that might be true.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Does heat cycling a new tire generally improve road force? (Apparently this is GM tire store position)

Please do not talk to those people again. They do not know what the heck they are talking about.

There are tires that will flat spot - and heat is what drives this - AND - you can remove a temporary flat spot by driving on the tires (generates heat!) But the idea that tires have to be heated repeatedly to improve uniformity is absurd.
 
Oh:

Quote:
I says they will make sure I'm happy, says to have dealer contact them.


Should be:

Quote:
He says they will make sure I'm happy, says to have dealer contact them.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Does heat cycling a new tire generally improve road force? (Apparently this is GM tire store position)

Please do not talk to those people again. They do not know what heck they are talking about.

There are tires that will flat spot - and heat is what drives this - AND - you can remove a temporary flat spot by driving on the tires (generates heat!) But the idea that tires have to be heated repeatedly to improve uniformity is absurd

They are good people, perhaps I've misunderstood what they said, but what I got was that GM would not LET them warranty a tire until it was heat cycled. I know when I worked for dealers GM also would not let us do an alignment under warranty until after 100 miles due to the feeling that the cars took a "set" during transport. (actually, we could do all the alignments we wanted, they just wouldn't pay us for them). Perhaps this is related to that?
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Is there an industry consensus on what sort of road force is acceptable?

No. The problem is that different vehicles have different levels of sensitivity. There is no "one size fits all"

Just thinking out loud, in general terms would a heavier vehicle be more or less sensitive - or does that not really even come into play, and it is more related to things like suspension design and dampener/spring rates?
 
Lighter cars are more sensitive, road force balancer Gives a warning screen when there is 24 pounds or higher of road force on a passenger tire 40 pounds on a light truck tire And then a rim run out can be done to determine if The tire can be rotated on the rim to make it better Or if the rim is bent
 
Certain cars are more sensitive to this than others. I once had a 2001 Cadillac STS, and owners of those cars and similar (Pontiac Bonneville, etc) know just how finnicky they are with road force, especially in either of the two front positions. In fact, GM released at least one updated lower control arm with a huge hydro bushing to try to alleviate the problem.

I had a problem similar to this on a Dodge Grand Caravan a few years ago. Bought four new Michelins from Sears, and they didn't seem to balance right, especially one of them. Every time I'd bring it back to Sears for a rebalance, the weights would move around, but the vibration persisted. I eventually paid out of pocket for a road force balance at a different tire dealer (Sears does not have one) and the numbers were something like 10, 12, 8, and 27. The technician said, "that's your bad tire, the one with 27#." I took the printout to Sears and, no questions asked, they replaced it with a new tire and the problem was solved. Sears even refunded the $60 I paid to to find the problem that they couldn't find, though I did have to ask for that.

The technician did say that anything over 20# of force is at least suspect. Most vehicles won't feel much under 20#. Over 20# and you're likely to get a customer complaint.

This demonstrates that nobody, including Michelin, makes perfect tires every single time. But it's great that Michelin stood behind you and you have four round tires now. Enjoy the drive.
 
Originally Posted By: FordFocus
... road force balancer Gives a warning screen when there is 24 pounds or higher of road force on a passenger tire 40 pounds on a light truck tire ...


This must be programmable by some one, my shops gives the warning at 18 for a Passenger car tire. I've watched them many times.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
.......but what I got was that GM would not LET them warranty a tire until it was heat cycled.......


That is totally untrue. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get this wrong, so I have to assume they told you this as stated (or close)

First, GM will do B2B warranty (Bumper to Bumper - the new car warranty) on tires even if there sin't anything wrong. There are a couple of ways of doing it, but the bottom line is that it is done everyday.

The second thing is that vibrations don't have to be "heat cycled". Maybe the guys you are talking to think in those terms, but the truth is that they want people to drive on the tires and not accept the roadforce values by themselves. In other words, verify there is a vibration.

Nevertheless, GM is will NOT deny warranty on tires returned for vibration.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
....... I know when I worked for dealers GM also would not let us do an alignment under warranty until after 100 miles due to the feeling that the cars took a "set" during transport. (actually, we could do all the alignments we wanted, they just wouldn't pay us for them). Perhaps this is related to that?


No, I have read the GM bulletins on alignment warranty and think they have a point. But they also say that if the vehicle gets on the alignment rack AFTER 12K, then they don't cover it either. However, it can take that long for the consumer to realize he has a tire wear problem that is caused by mis-alignment. I have seen statistics of alignment coming out of GM's factories - and they are far from perfect.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder

Another thing that I was a little irked about is that they sent one tire in the original batch that was one week earlier than the other 3. I didn't notice until late sat that the warranty card listed 2 and 2. The earlier tire was the one with 10LBS. I suspected a bad batch the following week. However the new 3 were the same week as the bad 3.

I am 100% happy with Michelin and 95% with TR. I think where TR is concerned that:

  • That for what these cost the date codes should match.




I think you're going overboard wanting all four of your tires to have the same week's date code. That doesn't make much sense to me.

But, there's more info in the DOT code that would be helpful. The DOT code also tells you the exact factory that made your tires. So, your "bad" and "good" tires may have the same date code, but they may not have been made in the same plant. Look into that, but perhaps they were all made at the same plant.
 
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder

Another thing that I was a little irked about is that they sent one tire in the original batch that was one week earlier than the other 3. I didn't notice until late sat that the warranty card listed 2 and 2. The earlier tire was the one with 10LBS. I suspected a bad batch the following week. However the new 3 were the same week as the bad 3.

I am 100% happy with Michelin and 95% with TR. I think where TR is concerned that:

  • That for what these cost the date codes should match.




I think you're going overboard wanting all four of your tires to have the same week's date code. That doesn't make much sense to me.


Perhaps so, I would be happier if they were 2/2, but I also think that they shouldn't sell hot dogs and hamburgers in packs of 6 but buns in packs of 8.
wink.gif


I like symmetry.

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
But, there's more info in the DOT code that would be helpful. The DOT code also tells you the exact factory that made your tires. So, your "bad" and "good" tires may have the same date code, but they may not have been made in the same plant. Look into that.

Also, there could be more than one line making the tires in a specific plant, so good and bad tires could be produced at the same time if there's a problem with one production line.


The DOT codes are the same, didn't think about various lines good point. Wonder how those are identified.

I would be interested in hearing any other theories about how 3 could be so bad and the next 3 nearly perfect.

To put it in perspective all 4 tires now have similar road force to only one of the "bad" tires.

These tires were not very fresh being manufactured in Feb 2011, so I wonder if they were impacted by some factor in storage. (Both Michelin and Tire Rack state that their storage is in favorable conditions and the tires don't really begin to age until installed)
 
Last edited:
32.gif
This date code thing has me wondering, do they always have a line of 195/60/15s going or do they "bake up a batch" then change the molds to do a different size or tread pattern?

IOW, would I find a bunch from, say, the 21st week then they'd warehouse them and the next bunch would come out the 33rd week?
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
32.gif
This date code thing has me wondering, do they always have a line of 195/60/15s going or do they "bake up a batch" then change the molds to do a different size or tread pattern?

IOW, would I find a bunch from, say, the 21st week then they'd warehouse them and the next bunch would come out the 33rd week?


I can only add this - Michelin said 14 and 15 inch tires move more slowly. He said up to 3 or so years should be of little concern for a NEW tire. I did a sort of informal survey at the local BJ's warehouse (where the tires are accessible) and found this same size Primacy in a H rating with 37/3811 date codes and BFGs in the same size /H somewhere in the 40's (I don't remember exactly what weeks).

On the GM warranty thing. They sell a fair number of tires through what they call the GM Tire Store. In fact if I want something other than Michelin's they can usually get them for a competitive price. So when they said "GM" I am not sure what "GM" they were speaking of. I will endeavor to try to understand their point better. It could also be an individual reps "preference". I know when I was working in dealers that each rep had their own little idiosyncrasies and was often easier to accommodate them than argue it.

At any rate I believe that heat cycling should/does not improve the uniformity.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
........Also, there could be more than one line making the tires in a specific plant......


Ah ..... Mmmmm...... No!

Tires are not made on assembly lines like cars are. There are separate machines - but typically a single machine produces tires of a specific kind - not 2 machines.

Honestly, everyone should forget about batches and assembly lines when it comes to these sorts of things. There are always a few tires on the outer reaches of the population.

In this case, this sounds like something happened AFTER the tires left the factory.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
........ Wonder how those are identified....


Long Version: http://www.barrystiretech.com/dotcoding.html

Short Vetrsion: It's the last 3 or 4 digits before the date code - and every tire manufacturer has its own list.
 
Learn somthin' every day around this place!

So we have:

AP = UNIROYAL GOODRICH TIRE MANUFACTURING ARDMORE OKLAHOMA
V9 = P195/60 15 MI
VVXX = ?Primacy MXV4 88V?
0511 ?Week of January 31 - Febuary 04 2011?
0611 ?Week of Febuary 7-11 2011?
 
Last edited:
I forgot to mention earlier that although TR does not indicate these tires are "GreenX", both the stickers and the tires are so labeled.

MXV43.jpg


MXV44.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top