PP 5W-35 SN, 3k OCI, Kia Optima SX 2.0T-GDI

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RedHotOptima

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(sorry if this is long, haha)...My last oil analysis (and all previous) was with M1 0W-40 runs.

Heres my last UOA Thread

I had decided on giving a 5w-30 oil a shot in the winter for a couple reasons:
-Oil spec is 5w-30 / 5w-40
-Although M1 0w-40 has a generally accepted superior formula, esp in extreme hot or extreme cold, I was hoping in ~0-10 deg C days here in PA that the lighter 5w-30 would prove beneficial on wear AND especially MPG while i drive around in sticky winter tires
-just wanted to experiment in general and a short winter OCI was a good time for that

The below is the Blackstone report of my Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30. I went with PP solely because it was on sale and felt like giving a different major brand a go. I'm still running the OEM oil filters like all my previous UOA. This UOA was done on the 2nd 3k OCI of PP 5w-30...There was also a 5k OCI of M1 0w-40 also not analyzed. So the engine has 11k miles more break-in since the last UOA.

At first glance it looks great and the comments talk towards that too. I agree for the most part. The most encouraging sight for me is the lower fuel dilution. I'm not sure I can attribute that to the oil though. Here's the UOA un-marked up:
5thuoa.png


Alright, the 1st obvious thing is that after 3k miles its down to a -20 weight oil, below spec. Not a ton but still under. I will run 5w-30 again next winter most likely based on the report, but never more than 3k miles.

The 2nd obvious thing is that they are comparing and giving glowing reviews of the measured PPMs with M1 UOA samples with 2k+ more miles OR were early in the engine's life & during break-in.
Not necessarily fair...again though, i'm happy with what PP did.

3rd is what Blackstone did not know, the driven conditions & maintenance since the last UOA....
This OCI saw a good amount of HWY miles. I track my MPG and other "stats" each tank in a simply excel sheet, and I scale/weight accordingly...My lifetime average speed per the comp (with proper weighting) is 38.4 MPH (my overall fuel avg at that speed avg is 24.3 mpg, FYI) . On this UOA's OCI, during those 3k miles I had 3 tanks (1066 miles) that averaged more than 10 MPH above my average speed. Basically at least more than 1/3 of this OCI was on long, non-standard HWY trips...THAT certainly attributes to my lower and "best" wear figures so far.
...ALSO, I upgraded/changed both my spark plugs and PCV hose. The spark plugs are to be replaced every ~30k (severe conditions) in partial thanks to D.I. and the factory PCV had the tendency to collapse depending on heat. I'd like to think these two might have helped some with engine health, wear, fuel dilution?..
...Lastly, due to the electronic wastegate on this turbo car, the voltage for the actuator that the ECU "expects"/checks for at start-up is thrown off during "cold" starts. It basically throws a code when colder than 40F out and the engine is cold. There's a fix but I've been lazy and havent done it nor taken it to the dealer. ANYWAY long story short is that to by-pass this issue I simply changed my cold-start driving habits. All winter I've woke up, got the dog up, started my car, and walked the dog while it warming up ~5 minutes or more. When I get back from the walk I turned it off, got ready for work and then start it up again (no code AND ~ 120-130 F engine temps) and THEN drive off. Much more gentle than I was in the past, prior to the wastegate actuator "issue". I strongly believe I'm reducing wear metals by not driving away 30 seconds after a 20 deg F start-up. I plan on continue this warm-up routine.

Here is my same report as above but applying a linear estimate for 5k miles. This is actually going easy on the PP because I would expect wear to not be linear but get worse and worse over the oil's life, especially with the fact it was already down to a _w-20 after 3k miles. On the right is the average of the last (2) 5k mile UOA on M1 0w-40 to compare to the PP 5w-30. Remember, the PP is with 11k more mils of break-in.
5thuoawcommentszl.png


So what do you think?

All in all, the report proved at worst that the PP 5w-30 is serviceable for 3k OCI, at least in the winter...and at best, it may be better... maybe.

I think the report also makes clear that if I want to go 5k OCI or longer (which i do), then I ought to stick with 0w-40. That's my plan. And with new warm-up procedure in the mornings & engine break-in, I expect the next UOA of M1 0W-40 to be at least on par with the PP 5w-30 (in 5k OCI terms), hopefully much better.
 
Why does fuel say TR?
I am not a fan of idling a car to part warm then shutting it off and then restart a while later. Much better to get a block heater and prewarm it that way. Nothing good about idling a car in terms of possible valvetrain wear and emissions equipment coking. Oil fuel dilution may increase as well, that's why the fuel number is important.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
(sorry if this is long, haha)...My last oil analysis (and all previous) was with M1 0W-40 runs.

Heres my last UOA Thread

I had decided on giving a 5w-30 oil a shot in the winter for a couple reasons:
-Oil spec is 5w-30 / 5w-40
-Although M1 0w-40 has a generally accepted superior formula, esp in extreme hot or extreme cold, I was hoping in ~0-10 deg C days here in PA that the lighter 5w-30 would prove beneficial on wear AND especially MPG while i drive around in sticky winter tires
-just wanted to experiment in general and a short winter OCI was a good time for that

The below is the Blackstone report of my Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30. I went with PP solely because it was on sale and felt like giving a different major brand a go. I'm still running the OEM oil filters like all my previous UOA. This UOA was done on the 2nd 3k OCI of PP 5w-30...There was also a 5k OCI of M1 0w-40 also not analyzed. So the engine has 11k miles more break-in since the last UOA.

At first glance it looks great and the comments talk towards that too. I agree for the most part. The most encouraging sight for me is the lower fuel dilution. I'm not sure I can attribute that to the oil though. Here's the UOA un-marked up:
5thuoa.png


Alright, the 1st obvious thing is that after 3k miles its down to a -20 weight oil, below spec. Not a ton but still under. I will run 5w-30 again next winter most likely based on the report, but never more than 3k miles.

The 2nd obvious thing is that they are comparing and giving glowing reviews of the measured PPMs with M1 UOA samples with 2k+ more miles OR were early in the engine's life & during break-in.
Not necessarily fair...again though, i'm happy with what PP did.

3rd is what Blackstone did not know, the driven conditions & maintenance since the last UOA....
This OCI saw a good amount of HWY miles. I track my MPG and other "stats" each tank in a simply excel sheet, and I scale/weight accordingly...My lifetime average speed per the comp (with proper weighting) is 38.4 MPH (my overall fuel avg at that speed avg is 24.3 mpg, FYI) . On this UOA's OCI, during those 3k miles I had 3 tanks (1066 miles) that averaged more than 10 MPH above my average speed. Basically at least more than 1/3 of this OCI was on long, non-standard HWY trips...THAT certainly attributes to my lower and "best" wear figures so far.
...ALSO, I upgraded/changed both my spark plugs and PCV hose. The spark plugs are to be replaced every ~30k (severe conditions) in partial thanks to D.I. and the factory PCV had the tendency to collapse depending on heat. I'd like to think these two might have helped some with engine health, wear, fuel dilution?..
...Lastly, due to the electronic wastegate on this turbo car, the voltage for the actuator that the ECU "expects"/checks for at start-up is thrown off during "cold" starts. It basically throws a code when colder than 40F out and the engine is cold. There's a fix but I've been lazy and havent done it nor taken it to the dealer. ANYWAY long story short is that to by-pass this issue I simply changed my cold-start driving habits. All winter I've woke up, got the dog up, started my car, and walked the dog while it warming up ~5 minutes or more. When I get back from the walk I turned it off, got ready for work and then start it up again (no code AND ~ 120-130 F engine temps) and THEN drive off. Much more gentle than I was in the past, prior to the wastegate actuator "issue". I strongly believe I'm reducing wear metals by not driving away 30 seconds after a 20 deg F start-up. I plan on continue this warm-up routine.

Here is my same report as above but applying a linear estimate for 5k miles. This is actually going easy on the PP because I would expect wear to not be linear but get worse and worse over the oil's life, especially with the fact it was already down to a _w-20 after 3k miles. On the right is the average of the last (2) 5k mile UOA on M1 0w-40 to compare to the PP 5w-30. Remember, the PP is with 11k more mils of break-in.
5thuoawcommentszl.png


So what do you think?

All in all, the report proved at worst that the PP 5w-30 is serviceable for 3k OCI, at least in the winter...and at best, it may be better... maybe.

I think the report also makes clear that if I want to go 5k OCI or longer (which i do), then I ought to stick with 0w-40. That's my plan. And with new warm-up procedure in the mornings & engine break-in, I expect the next UOA of M1 0W-40 to be at least on par with the PP 5w-30 (in 5k OCI terms), hopefully much better.



You have it backwards. Wear metals trend lower as the oil ages and miles are put on. I suggest reading the article on the homepage by Dnewton in respect to wear metal trends.
Very interesting ideas. Thanks for posting.
 
Originally Posted By: Danno
Why does fuel say TR?
I am not a fan of idling a car to part warm then shutting it off and then restart a while later. Much better to get a block heater and prewarm it that way. Nothing good about idling a car in terms of possible valvetrain wear and emissions equipment coking. Oil fuel dilution may increase as well, that's why the fuel number is important.

TR=trace
Oil dilution got better, the best its ever been with the warm-up method I described. I agree a block heater would be ideal, but nothing good about a boosted vehicle driving at 0 Deg C so I think I picked the lesser of the two evils. Maybe next winter i'll get a block heater in.

Originally Posted By: Clevy

You have it backwards. Wear metals trend lower as the oil ages and miles are put on. I suggest reading the article on the homepage by Dnewton in respect to wear metal trends.
Very interesting ideas. Thanks for posting.

Thanks no problems.
So the more worn down an oil, the better it protects huh?
Maybe the filter is becoming more efficient as more gets stuck in it, but I have a hard time believing wear that's actually occurring is decreasing. The oil is getting thinner over time though, I understand this...so I'm sure that helps in the "harsh" engine wear conditions like start-ups.But think of a boosted application...Not sure the thinned out and worn oil is actually "best" for lubrication of the turbo. Naturally Aspirated engines I'm sure there's more of an argument for.
 
Very interesting story line.
Now, this is going to be a bit harsh.
It's all worthless in deciding what you are probably after ... that being "which one is best?"


You simply cannot run singular samples, and then have any expectation of determining a winner, so to speak. You can only run these against macro data, not micro data. And on top of that, you have changed all kinds of inputs at the same time (driving temps, hwy mileage, new plugs, etc). There is ZERO consistiency in your approach; you have no reasonable expectation of making any determinations other than purely anecdotal ones.

Simply put, your data is a simple cacophony of numbers with no real meaning. And you're paying for UOAs to confirm the wreckless approach, to boot.

Clevy is right; please read my "normalcy" article.

I appologize for the harshness.
 
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I understand all that. The purpose was to see how PP 5w-30 was "accepted" in my engine. Before doing this, the conclusion was that 0W-40 or 5w-40 was to used, while to avoid 5w-30 oils. Mainly due to shear and fuel dilution.

My UOA has shown i'm at the very worst OKAY with PP 5w-30 in my winter driving habits. Where the argument and comparison can not fully go (like you say and I AGREE with) is with M1 0W-40 due to different driving conditions and other variables. However I did talk about the variables I know that affected it. Are they on a spreadsheet and these results of each specific variable quantifiable? NO...but some simply brain power will show the PP 5W-30 is somewhat comparable as long as mileage is kept short and mileage is easier (more hwy).
 
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
I understand all that. The purpose was to see how PP 5w-30 was "accepted" in my engine. Before doing this, the conclusion was that 0W-40 or 5w-40 was to used, while to avoid 5w-30 oils. Mainly due to shear and fuel dilution.

My UOA has shown i'm at the very worst OKAY with PP 5w-30 in my winter driving habits. Where the argument and comparison can not fully go (like you say and I AGREE with) is with M1 0W-40 due to different driving conditions and other variables. However I did talk about the variables I know that affected it. Are they on a spreadsheet and these results of each specific variable quantifiable? NO...but some simply brain power will show the PP 5W-30 is somewhat comparable as long as mileage is kept short and mileage is easier (more hwy).



You can most certainly compare/contast any single combination to macro-data sets; see my normalcy article.

You cannot fairly judge anything (one lube against another) without full micro-analysis; again - see my article.
 
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Originally Posted By: badtlc
The fuel dilution doesn't look any better to me. Still severe.


Why? due to flashpoint & visc? I agree somewhat.. I think its probably still around 1% or so, but wonder why Blackstone only report it as "trace" then...? If less than 1% do they label it Trace?

I've seen tables like this regarding DIESEL fuel dilution % VS. Flashpoint but not gasoline fuel chart.
Backup_200003_flshfig3.jpg

The obvious difference is that diesel fuel has a higher flashpoint than 87 or even 93 octane gasoline. Therefore for gasoline applications like mine, the % fuel dilution needed to drop the oil's flashpoint is less than if it was with diesel. A tiny bit (trace) of petrol can result in a decent change of flashpoint.
 
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
ps- no one caught the thread title mistake? haha..sorry about that..


People are accustomed to some that assume a mix of a 30 and a 40 would be a 35. I supposed the API thread enforcers took a few days off.
 
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The fuel dilution doesn't look any better to me. Still severe.


Why? due to flashpoint & visc? I agree somewhat.. I think its probably still around 1% or so, but wonder why Blackstone only report it as "trace" then...? If less than 1% do they label it Trace?



Because Blackstone doesn't use a very accurate method of measuring fuel. It is pretty much useless from blackstone.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The fuel dilution doesn't look any better to me. Still severe.


Why? due to flashpoint & visc? I agree somewhat.. I think its probably still around 1% or so, but wonder why Blackstone only report it as "trace" then...? If less than 1% do they label it Trace?



Because Blackstone doesn't use a very accurate method of measuring fuel. It is pretty much useless from blackstone.


+1. I looked at your previous UOA. Where it says fuel 1.8% it is probably about 5%. Mobil 1 was earning it's keep in that report! Where it says TR for this report I am guessing fuel is actually between 2-3%. Nothing against Blackstone. I know they are extremely nice folks with great customer service.

Just wanted you to be aware. To get accurate fuel measurement you need a lab like Polaris that uses GC.
 
What does Hyundai recommend for this engine?
In terms of wear metals and insoluables, it looks like the 5W-30 PP did pretty well.
You can't extrapolate the wear metals for a longer run from these results either.
I'd do three straight 5K runs of PP 5W-30 and UOA the third.
See what it looks like.
Ignore ending viscosity and TBN just see what wear looks like.
It doesn't look like the thick M1 was any improvement over the thinner PP.
Remember that a UOA is at best a blunt tool for determining relative wear rates.
A UOA is more about the life of an oil in service than it is about the life of an engine using any given oil.
You haven't posted much, so welcome to the forum.
Given the number of UOAs you've had done, check out Polaris pricing on a ten pack.
If you're going to run a bunch of UOAs, you may as well use a lab that is at least as reliable as Blackstone while saving yourself some money.
 
redhotoptima, i dont see a problem with a 5 minute warm up like others do.

the problem is shutting it off before its warm, to restart it again. try just a 5 minute warm up and then drive.

people here get hung up on not idling the car to warm up for fuel dilution reasons. In a turbo application i encourage you to warm it up a but.

i don't understand how people believe that a 5 minute idle allowing the engine to reciprocate slowly warming the oil before the rpms raise increases wear. engines wear most when cold, sure. that is exactly why i don't start my cars, throw them into gear and go ripping off to 4k rpm on a cold engine and cold oil.

a small warmup IMO is healthy for the engines internal health. definitly healthier than spirited driving on a cold engine.

fuel dilution can be and issue, but your UOA is proving the PP is still protecting as a 20wt oil. i warm up my cars in the winter and i let them idle a minute or so in the summer before i drive off. my father has always done the same. all of his vehicles run 250+k warming up every morning using dino oil at 7-10k miles. he is one of those guys who only changes his oil when i remind him to, usually after he has gone 7k+ on dino. fuel dilution from warmup hasnt killed his 268k mile f150 yet.
 
Originally Posted By: REDDOG
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: RedHotOptima
Originally Posted By: badtlc
The fuel dilution doesn't look any better to me. Still severe.


Why? due to flashpoint & visc? I agree somewhat.. I think its probably still around 1% or so, but wonder why Blackstone only report it as "trace" then...? If less than 1% do they label it Trace?



Because Blackstone doesn't use a very accurate method of measuring fuel. It is pretty much useless from blackstone.


+1. I looked at your previous UOA. Where it says fuel 1.8% it is probably about 5%. Mobil 1 was earning it's keep in that report! Where it says TR for this report I am guessing fuel is actually between 2-3%. Nothing against Blackstone. I know they are extremely nice folks with great customer service.

Just wanted you to be aware. To get accurate fuel measurement you need a lab like Polaris that uses GC.


Appreciate the post, however what makes you so sure that 1.8% was closer to 5% and Trace was more like 2-3%??

Did you see my post above with the graph of DIESEL fuel dilution and how I then posted you cannot use such a chart for petrol dilution percents? If not and you're using articles/graphs that speak on diesel fuel, then you are off base. If you have found a study, etc, on PETROL/GASOLINE flashpoint drop Verses Fuel Dilution, then I'd love to see the link etc.

I don't disagree that Blackstone isn't the absolute top notch lab, BUT I don't know or see the basis to claim their fuel % is soooo off. I've only seen diesel studies to back up this claim and that is flawed and not fair to Blackstone.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
What does Hyundai recommend for this engine?
In terms of wear metals and insoluables, it looks like the 5W-30 PP did pretty well.
You can't extrapolate the wear metals for a longer run from these results either.
I'd do three straight 5K runs of PP 5W-30 and UOA the third.
See what it looks like.
Ignore ending viscosity and TBN just see what wear looks like.
It doesn't look like the thick M1 was any improvement over the thinner PP.
Remember that a UOA is at best a blunt tool for determining relative wear rates.
A UOA is more about the life of an oil in service than it is about the life of an engine using any given oil.
You haven't posted much, so welcome to the forum.
Given the number of UOAs you've had done, check out Polaris pricing on a ten pack.
If you're going to run a bunch of UOAs, you may as well use a lab that is at least as reliable as Blackstone while saving yourself some money.


Thanks, its recommended to run 5W-30 or 5w-40. 3k severe / 5k normal

I would disagree that M1 wasn't any better than PP. I mean we can argue that Blackstone's fuel % test isnt the most accurate (which I question that basis of those statements, see my last post), BUT atleats each UOA was done with their method, and the fuel% dilution that M1 faced was therefore much more severe than what PP faced, plus on 10k less engine break-in. So I'd say the M1 was more impressive. Just IMO..

I guess I shouldn't have posted estimates & compared the two, it seems like everyone is caught up on that LOL. But if I didn't consider & mention all the variables and provide logically comparisons, then everyone wouldve been like WOW PP 5w-30 kicked M1's a$$. Heck thats what I 1st though, I was impressed, until I thought about it some more.

Of course the best thing to do would run each oil many oil changes in a row, without doing mods to my car, same driving conditons, etc...but 1) I know I can trust the M1 0w-40 for 5k-plus in the summer and more city driving, so why stick to PP 5w-30? just for UOA on this board?..and 2) that's not realistic for my tinkering, inpatient mind
smile.gif
and 3) i'm sure 90% of the UOA on here are not following the same statistics approach D.Newton posted and other suggest to follow.

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
redhotoptima, i dont see a problem with a 5 minute warm up like others do.

the problem is shutting it off before its warm, to restart it again. try just a 5 minute warm up and then drive.

people here get hung up on not idling the car to warm up for fuel dilution reasons. In a turbo application i encourage you to warm it up a but.

i don't understand how people believe that a 5 minute idle allowing the engine to reciprocate slowly warming the oil before the rpms raise increases wear. engines wear most when cold, sure. that is exactly why i don't start my cars, throw them into gear and go ripping off to 4k rpm on a cold engine and cold oil.

a small warmup IMO is healthy for the engines internal health. definitly healthier than spirited driving on a cold engine.

fuel dilution can be and issue, but your UOA is proving the PP is still protecting as a 20wt oil. i warm up my cars in the winter and i let them idle a minute or so in the summer before i drive off. my father has always done the same. all of his vehicles run 250+k warming up every morning using dino oil at 7-10k miles. he is one of those guys who only changes his oil when i remind him to, usually after he has gone 7k+ on dino. fuel dilution from warmup hasnt killed his 268k mile f150 yet.

Thanks,
Yea i was thinking more about it and I dont think what i'm doing was too bad. Choices are:
a) start at 30F temps and driving away, creating load & up to ~3-4k rpms for 10 miles under operating temps
b) start at 30F temps, let idle at 750 rpm & no load for ~5 minutes...then drive away at 70% operating temps with load & 3-4k RPMS...and reach operating temps within 5 miles

I'm sure wear between a & b are actually pretty close, especially in a forced induction application. The less time without load while under operating temps, the better.

It did protect well but as a 20wt? Maybe it had only dropped down to 20wt visc. in the last 500 miles or so..Hard to say, but very possible, with the assumption it drops more & more over adding dilution & shearing. That was my point about viewing PP's wear as linear to 5k as being MAYBE "easy" on the oil.
If it just got to 20wt and continued to face fuel dilution, a turbo, etc for 2k more miles on its way to a 5k OCI....well I'd say it achieving equal (linear) wear per 1k would be extraordinary. Others are saying it will produce less wear as time goes on (i disagree) Statisticians say I cant assume or know unless I actually do it, repeatable times. ( i agree...although logically am I on the wrong path?)
 
First off I would like to say I love the design/style inside and out of the Optima - I hear the stylist worked with VAG, also.

ON a turbo car with short OCI I would not read anything into the UOA. Too much over-anaylsing going on over nothing. I would just listen to the engine for noise, use your fuel mileage chart for efficiency. UOA dont show fretting or extreme wear - the big bits just arent in the sump.
But muct guys here will tell you I think UOA are pretty much worthless for any meaningful PCMO analysis. I cant recall the last time I've seen a filter media wash down and particle count - more than half the wear picture is there.
Lets see what else is really wrong on BITOG - downgrading motor oil based on oil pressure; here's a fundamental misunderstanding of viscosity relating to margin safe operation.

Have fun though!
 
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