Potential Fram X2 Extended Guard Problem

[BlazerLT]

Fram haters, please don't turn this into a "I hate Fram thread".

This is an application concern.

Ok, I need some help with my diagnosis of a base idle lifter tapping problem I have had lately on my 1995 4.3L with a remote oil filter assembly which is behind the fron bumper.

The noise goes away immediately once the engine rpms are picked up and the pressure increases.

Since installing the Fram X2, at idle the lifter assembly seems to be making more noise than normal when at warm complete idle.

Now I also notice that my oil pressure has been a little higher lately since installing the filter as well.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any cold start knock even at -30f so I don't think that is a huge concern.

My concern is based on the fact that the synthetic media might be hindering the flow enough that I am not seeing proper top end lubrication when at hot idle.

This is the construction of the X2.

Now seeing the synthetic media does filter very well, I am wondering if it is filtering just too well and not allowing enough flow when compared to a standard well built paper element filter.

I can see this filter having no problems when it is screwed directly into the block like the 1994 Cavalier I use this filter on as well, but I think I might be too much filtration when compared to say a K&N oil filter like this below:

Seems to be a little easier getting oil through that filter and it does flow better.

What do you guys think.

Just for a wrap up, do you think the X2 might be a little too restrictive for a remote oil filter setup?

 

[Bob Miller]

Doubt that. Pure One, Wix all seem to be more restrictive. As for K&N, it is one of the more higher flow filters.

Perhaps your trouble lies elswhere? Varnish, dirt? Try a cleaner form one of the sponsors.

 

[BlazerLT]

I am currently in a AutoRx cleaning cycle but that has nothing to do with it seeing it happened before as well.

I am not talking about those other filters seeing I haven't used them, I am talking about my actualy application with a remote filter setup.

Do I need a higher flowing filter to make up for the flow loss from a remote filter setup.

[ April 09, 2005, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: BlazerLT ]

 

[Drew99GT]

As Gary Allen's test is revealing I think, the only time a filter actually restricts, or limits the amount of oil flow is when it is super duper cold outside (thus opening the oil pump bypass). At hot idle, I'd be willing to bet that all the oil that the pump is "pumping" is in fact going through the filter and on through the motor.

Perhaps the lifter issue is just age. My dad has a 98 4.3L Blazer with 170K and the lifters every so often get loud

Then, as if your driving a different vehicle, the noise goes away or isn't there the next day when driving.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

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Originally posted by Drew99GT:
As Gary Allen's test is revealing I think, the only time a filter actually restricts, or limits the amount of oil flow is when it is super duper cold outside (thus opening the oil pump bypass). At hot idle, I'd be willing to bet that all the oil that the pump is "pumping" is in fact going through the filter and on through the motor.

Perhaps the lifter issue is just age. My dad has a 98 4.3L Blazer with 170K and the lifters every so often get loud

Then, as if your driving a different vehicle, the noise goes away or isn't there the next day when driving.

---

Nah, the engine is far from wearing out.

At idle I am thinking the filter is just to restrictive to allow proper oil flow in a remote oil filter setup.

As soon as the rpms go up the noise goes away.

 

[Drew99GT]

How does the fact that the filter setup is remote, hinder flow? The oil pump is positive displacement. Once the oil lines from the pump going to the filter are full of oil, along with the rest of the circuit, the pump will move the same amount of oil through the system. You could have the oil filter mounted on a trailer behind your rig and as long as the oil lines going to it weren't tiny, the exact same amount of flow would be going through the system as if the filter was mounted to the block. Look at how much extra oil lines are on bypass systems.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
How does the fact that the filter setup is remote, hinder flow? The oil pump is positive displacement. Once the oil lines from the pump going to the filter are full of oil, along with the rest of the circuit, the pump will move the same amount of oil through the system. You could have the oil filter mounted on a trailer behind your rig and as long as the oil lines going to it weren't tiny, the exact same amount of flow would be going through the system as if the filter was mounted to the block. Look at how much extra oil lines are on bypass systems.

---

The pressure will increase as you route the oil through a remote oil filter setup rather than if you had the filter attached right to the block.

Instead of the oil having to just flow through the filter, it has to flow through the oil filter adapter, through the oil lines going to the filter, through the filter and through the cooler and back into the engine again.

This adds a lot of pressure and if you add even more pressure via a overly restrictive oil filter, this will hinder oil flow at lower rpms and at idle.

This adds resistance to flow which is pressure.

I am talking about the application.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

"Ok, I need some help with my diagnosis of a base idle lifter tapping problem I have had lately on my 1995 4.3L with a remote oil filter assembly which is behind the fron bumper.

The noise goes away immediately once the engine rpms are picked up and the pressure increases.

Since installing the Fram X2, at idle the lifter assembly seems to be making more noise than normal when at warm complete idle."

BlazerLT-
I have a 95 Blazer too (with a reman'ed engine though!). It has the same setup for remote filter. Your description just sounds like a lifter that drains out after sitting awhile. Our Blazer does it every now and then too. Sometimes it will go several months without doing it and then it does it again every now and then. As long as it only does it momentarily I'd just leave well enough alone. The extra lifter area noise could possibly be noise that has been there all along but now you are more cognizant of it?
The only way to prove the filter is responsible is to just change the filter only (but not the oil) and see if the sound/indicated pressure changes.
I haven't used Frams in a long time, but back when I did, I always had some startup noises until the oil thinned out, but I never used the X2...it still may be restrictive to thick oil- only way to check it is to change it on your vehicle (and test it on that filter test)

You can always swap filters, see if noise changes, put old filter back on, see if noise comes back.

 

[Filter guy]

Are you overlooking the fact that there should be a pressure relief valve in the filter head or the filter itself.

So any extra restriction that you think the filter media has, will be offset by the relief valve opening up.

As Gary's by-pass testing shows, he's only seeing a 2-4psi pressure drop through the filter media. Synthetic media is supposed to have even lower initial restriction than paper media. So that much pressure drop shouldn't be significant in creating the lifter noise you're talking about. Or you've got every sensitive to flow lifters..

Does your remote filter head have a relief valve in it?

 

[DoubleDee]

Blazer LT,

I too am noticing a difference in engine noise with different filters on my 4.3(96 Blazer LT). I have seen(heard) the best results so far with the AC Delco filter. I have tried Donaldon,Purolator, Fram,Baldwin, and AC Delco with the AC the only one where my engine remained quiet at all times. In looking for a good quality filter, how do you decide which is best. I was looking for a higher flowing rather than high filtering, but with the Donaldon and the Purolator Premium Plus, both had engine noise. The AC is a higher filtering than flow, but yet quiet engine. The Baldwin is top notch, higher filter, but has angine noise. Are we dealing with the function of the internal valve that the GM engines have that is helping to cause this?? With Champ making the new AC filters and the problems we have seem with them, this is not so easy to decide.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

The Chevy has a bypass built-in to the filter mount just prior to the filter, and if the filter is flow-restrictive (in this case at startup) the bypass will open up. If the bypass IS opening then the pressure drop across the filter has already reached the point that activates the bypass...therefore, flow has already been reduced. This would account for general noise during idling with cold thick oil.

Gary's test is not using this FramX2 filter at the moment.

Momentary lifter noise at startup is due to the lifter draining out after sitting awhile.

 

[DoubleDee]

For my Blazer there is no noise at startup, it is during acceleration only.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

DoubleDee,
Maybe your Blazer is like a rifle..One brand of ammo is accurate for a particular gun that can't hit the side of a barn with other brands. That same ammo won't shoot well in another seemingly identical rifle. Maybe you have found the particular filter to use with your particular Blazer...at least until that brand gets made differently. Then you got to start the experiment all over again

 

[T-Keith]

Usually startup noise is asociated with a bad ADBV. I have my concerns about Fram's ADBV, as I've posted before.

According to Grease's filter study The X2 is about midpack as far as flow goes, and actually above the AC-delco so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

-T

 

[Drew99GT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlazerLT:

This adds resistance to flow which is pressure.

---

Yes it adds pressure, but the only time flow is actually reduced is when the pressure gets high enough to open the oil pump bypass. As long as the clearences are good and there's a tight seal in the pump, the oil pump will pump the same volume of oil regardless of the pressure, as long as it doesn't reach the pump bypass limit on the inlet side of the filter.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:


BlazerLT-
I have a 95 Blazer too (with a reman'ed engine though!). It has the same setup for remote filter. Your description just sounds like a lifter that drains out after sitting awhile. Our Blazer does it every now and then too. Sometimes it will go several months without doing it and then it does it again every now and then. As long as it only does it momentarily I'd just leave well enough alone. The extra lifter area noise could possibly be noise that has been there all along but now you are more cognizant of it?
The only way to prove the filter is responsible is to just change the filter only (but not the oil) and see if the sound/indicated pressure changes.
I haven't used Frams in a long time, but back when I did, I always had some startup noises until the oil thinned out, but I never used the X2...it still may be restrictive to thick oil- only way to check it is to change it on your vehicle (and test it on that filter test)

You can always swap filters, see if noise changes, put old filter back on, see if noise comes back. [/QB]

---

Thanks bro, but I have no noise at startup.

The noise is there at hot idle only.

When I am driving and I park it and allow the engine to keep on running, the noise will slowly appear and will immediately go away once I touch the throttle.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:
Are you overlooking the fact that there should be a pressure relief valve in the filter head or the filter itself.

So any extra restriction that you think the filter media has, will be offset by the relief valve opening up.

As Gary's by-pass testing shows, he's only seeing a 2-4psi pressure drop through the filter media. Synthetic media is supposed to have even lower initial restriction than paper media. So that much pressure drop shouldn't be significant in creating the lifter noise you're talking about. Or you've got every sensitive to flow lifters..

Does your remote filter head have a relief valve in it?

---

Yea, the filter has a relief valve in it. It is just that I don't think I am getting enough flow at hot idle when the engine rpms are low.

There is not enough pressure restriction to kick out the pressure relief valve, but just enough to lower the lifter pressure.

The remote filter setups are rather restrictive when compared to a filter attached directly to the block.

Couple that with the fact that the X2 seems to not have enough inner steel core perferations maybe just might just be restricting flow enough to starve the top end a little.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DoubleDee:
Blazer LT,

I too am noticing a difference in engine noise with different filters on my 4.3(96 Blazer LT). I have seen(heard) the best results so far with the AC Delco filter. I have tried Donaldon,Purolator, Fram,Baldwin, and AC Delco with the AC the only one where my engine remained quiet at all times. In looking for a good quality filter, how do you decide which is best. I was looking for a higher flowing rather than high filtering, but with the Donaldon and the Purolator Premium Plus, both had engine noise. The AC is a higher filtering than flow, but yet quiet engine. The Baldwin is top notch, higher filter, but has angine noise. Are we dealing with the function of the internal valve that the GM engines have that is helping to cause this?? With Champ making the new AC filters and the problems we have seem with them, this is not so easy to decide.

---

Yea, I am thinking that our trucks with the remote filter setup might make our filter applications and choices a little limited. I didn't seem to have the noise with the other filters.

It is quiet and everything when it is cold, but then the noise starts appearing when hot and at operating temperature.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
The Chevy has a bypass built-in to the filter mount just prior to the filter, and if the filter is flow-restrictive (in this case at startup) the bypass will open up. If the bypass IS opening then the pressure drop across the filter has already reached the point that activates the bypass...therefore, flow has already been reduced. This would account for general noise during idling with cold thick oil.

Gary's test is not using this FramX2 filter at the moment.

Momentary lifter noise at startup is due to the lifter draining out after sitting awhile.

---

Yes, but I have no noise at startup. Perfectly quiet.

 

[BlazerLT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Keith:
Usually startup noise is asociated with a bad ADBV. I have my concerns about Fram's ADBV, as I've posted before.

According to Grease's filter study The X2 is about midpack as far as flow goes, and actually above the AC-delco so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

-T

---

Yes, but the silicon ADBV is perfectly fine with the X2 and I have no startup noise.

The Ac Delco filters in Canada are made by a different manufacturer than yours in the states. Dana manufacturing makes them here in Canada and they also make Wix and the Napa brands.