Potential Fram X2 Extended Guard Problem
- Thread starter BlazerLT
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I've seen cars have issues when grossly overfilled.
But, when the engine is running, where is the oil and what is the level in the pan?
Usually, a pint is not a problem!
Sorry, was hoping for a bad remote filter installation. But, OEMs that I've seen are pretty good.
Maybe autorx will clean out the oil filter bypass in the engine. If it fails, it could cause filtration to stop. Or, it could cause filtration not to stop.
I wonder if there is a filter, in that thread size, with a similar can size, that has a built in bypass, that could be used in place of the 3980.
I guess that you should just change out the filter for another brand.
One of my cars did not like the "Pureone" filter. I got the clatter from that filter on cold starts and don't use Pureone anymore. And, it was a filter without bypass.
But, when the engine is running, where is the oil and what is the level in the pan?
Usually, a pint is not a problem!
Sorry, was hoping for a bad remote filter installation. But, OEMs that I've seen are pretty good.
Maybe autorx will clean out the oil filter bypass in the engine. If it fails, it could cause filtration to stop. Or, it could cause filtration not to stop.
I wonder if there is a filter, in that thread size, with a similar can size, that has a built in bypass, that could be used in place of the 3980.
I guess that you should just change out the filter for another brand.
One of my cars did not like the "Pureone" filter. I got the clatter from that filter on cold starts and don't use Pureone anymore. And, it was a filter without bypass.
Sorry, Wasn't clear about that..
The 95 Blazer book says 4.5 qts, so that is what I put in the 95 Blazer. The 99 S10 truck says 5 qts, so that is what I put in the 99 truck. The 99 truck dipstick shows overfull on the dipstick after that 5qts. I just keep an eye on it and never see any bubbles is what I was saying. The Blazer starts out at correct point on dipstick and ends up at about 1/3 qt low after 3k miles oci. The 99 truck doesn't burn any oil after 3k miles.
Hope that is clearer..
I was just saying that the Blazer behaves the same with oil at the top of crosshatch and at about 1/3 the way down...(If I add oil at that point it takes 1/3 qt to be full again).
I think these Blazers must have personalities?
The 95 Blazer book says 4.5 qts, so that is what I put in the 95 Blazer. The 99 S10 truck says 5 qts, so that is what I put in the 99 truck. The 99 truck dipstick shows overfull on the dipstick after that 5qts. I just keep an eye on it and never see any bubbles is what I was saying. The Blazer starts out at correct point on dipstick and ends up at about 1/3 qt low after 3k miles oci. The 99 truck doesn't burn any oil after 3k miles.
Hope that is clearer..
I was just saying that the Blazer behaves the same with oil at the top of crosshatch and at about 1/3 the way down...(If I add oil at that point it takes 1/3 qt to be full again).
I think these Blazers must have personalities?
From what I have heard from professionals, being close to 3/4 of a quart overfilled when your capacity is only 4.5 quarts is actually quite significant and will cause problems.
With an overfilled crankcase, the splash lubrication will be hindered quite a bit if the crank is completely or mostly submerged in oil.
With an overfilled crankcase, the splash lubrication will be hindered quite a bit if the crank is completely or mostly submerged in oil.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
The 99 S10 truck says 5 qts, so that is what I put in the 99 truck.
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Is yours the 4-banger 2.2????
My 1999 S-10 manual says both 4.3 engines only take 4.5 quarts w/filter.
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Is yours the 4-banger 2.2????
My 1999 S-10 manual says both 4.3 engines only take 4.5 quarts w/filter.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
I will still go by the dipstick though.
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Going to the top line on the dipstick is beyond the owners manual 4.5 qt recommendation. Dealer says we can use up-to 5 quarts, but optimum splash is with 4.5 quarts.
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Going to the top line on the dipstick is beyond the owners manual 4.5 qt recommendation. Dealer says we can use up-to 5 quarts, but optimum splash is with 4.5 quarts.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
Really, can you confirm this?
So you are saying at the top of the cross hatch area in the previous photo is technically overfilled?
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I was told at the dealer desk to follow the manual because dipsticks can easily be switched & the wrong one installed at the factory. He said the S-10 has a dipstick that shows a "overfill" mark beyond the recommended fill, but 4.5 quarts is the recommended volume & that customary fill mark is actually a safe overfill mark. I suppose that if we go to 10 different dealers, we are liable to get an answer supporting both sides.
I do know that GM's 1999 S-10 Truck Manual contains no misprints or errors. Anyone installing a part at the factory does occasionally make an error. That's why "this particular GM Service Manager" I visited states to always comply with the writings inside your S-10 Truck Manual over/instead of part readings under the hood.
[ April 11, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]
So you are saying at the top of the cross hatch area in the previous photo is technically overfilled?
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I was told at the dealer desk to follow the manual because dipsticks can easily be switched & the wrong one installed at the factory. He said the S-10 has a dipstick that shows a "overfill" mark beyond the recommended fill, but 4.5 quarts is the recommended volume & that customary fill mark is actually a safe overfill mark. I suppose that if we go to 10 different dealers, we are liable to get an answer supporting both sides.
I do know that GM's 1999 S-10 Truck Manual contains no misprints or errors. Anyone installing a part at the factory does occasionally make an error. That's why "this particular GM Service Manager" I visited states to always comply with the writings inside your S-10 Truck Manual over/instead of part readings under the hood.
[ April 11, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]
well, just complicate the issue, my 3.0 Ford DOHC takes 5.5 quarts by manual. Using the "satndard" Motocraft 820s filter this works, but when using the Fram XG2, 6 quarts brings it to the "full" mark.
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
well, just complicate the issue, my 3.0 Ford DOHC takes 5.5 quarts by manual. Using the "satndard" Motocraft 820s filter this works, but when using the Fram XG2, 6 quarts brings it to the "full" mark.
The dealer didn't complicate your oil filter choice -- you did by switching to a larger or smaller filter!
Once you determine that your manual is correct & your dipstick is the correct one, it is up to you to memorize the point/paint a picture on the dipstick that 4.5 quarts brings. It is up to you & I to know "how much more" or "how much less" oil another filter supplier requires for their filter.
In other words... the height/placement of the oil on the dipstick should not change when using another supplier's oil filter
The dealer didn't complicate your oil filter choice -- you did by switching to a larger or smaller filter!
Once you determine that your manual is correct & your dipstick is the correct one, it is up to you to memorize the point/paint a picture on the dipstick that 4.5 quarts brings. It is up to you & I to know "how much more" or "how much less" oil another filter supplier requires for their filter.
In other words... the height/placement of the oil on the dipstick should not change when using another supplier's oil filter
This is incredibly interesting and you have gotten my attention.
Come to think of it, I do think I do add more than 4.5qts when I do an oil change.
I think it would actually be close to 5 quarts added but again, I may be wrong.
So essentially, the top the the cross hatched area is the safe overfill area kinda thing and that is why they state not to go over that level?
Would make sense.
Back in November, I had a problem with small bubbles being seen on the dipstick.
Thread is here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008645#000000
Maybe this indeed was the cause of it.
I'd trust the dipstick more then the manual. The amount it takes can depend on your filling procedures. I've seen the same vehicle vary 1 whole quart depending on who fills it. A lot of the difference is in how long you let the bottle drain. Most people seem to leave a lot left in the bottle and it effects their fill amount. Some people let it drain longer too and putting the plug in before removing the filter can make a big difference.
-T
-T
True, my method is to remove the oil filter on the remote assembly and allow it to drain completely and leave the filter off as I drain the pan for 10 minutes or so until it drips once every 20 seconds or so.
Then I usually add 3-4 oz of fresh oil to push out the remaining old oil in the pan.
Sounds like your thorough like me, you probably add more then most people do, just because you drain more out. I drain the pan and replace the plug, then drain and replace the filter, and then finally remove the plug again. Usually I get an extra 1/4 quart or so this way.
-T
-T
I drain and remove the filter completely while draining the pan. That way there is no vacuum pockets holding oil back up in the engine.
I even remove the dipstick so the pan has lots of ways to draw in air so the oil can flow out.
Now is only my oil cooler had a drain.
The Fram X2 is their best filter. It has been used by many on this site at lest once with no problems. I think your problems lies elseware! Now the filter that is on the vechilemay very well be bad as this happens to all brands from time to time.
Rember that if their is a pressure diff. between input and out put of the filter in the bypas range wichis normaly in the 10-20 PSI range the oil will bypass the filter media all together.
All vechiles with engines designed with hydralic lifter have strange lifter problems that will sometimes come and go. It is usualy only a problem if the noise comes and never goes! Lifters in GM products have very generious supply of oil and it gets to them really quickly.
Seeing how you have a sludge issue due to previous poor maintence by the previous owner combined with scetchy repairs that left the engine open to dirty infiltration I would suspect it is a varnish/sludge issue or previous wear from neglect. Lifters are not that forgiveing of excessive wear.varnish or sludge! Lifters are also probably one of the first metalic valvetrain componets to start misfunctioning. Ford's 3.0 and 4.0 Colgne V6 are notorius for lifter issues!
Their is one unrelated thing you should check while you are under the car. Check the oil lines going to the radiator from the remote filter block and to the engine block. While this probably has nothing to do with your problem at all they are none to fail on these units at an alarming rate! So if you see your leaking at all get the lines,seals adn fitting changed ASAP!
Good Luck with the Auto-Rx!!!
Rember that if their is a pressure diff. between input and out put of the filter in the bypas range wichis normaly in the 10-20 PSI range the oil will bypass the filter media all together.
All vechiles with engines designed with hydralic lifter have strange lifter problems that will sometimes come and go. It is usualy only a problem if the noise comes and never goes! Lifters in GM products have very generious supply of oil and it gets to them really quickly.
Seeing how you have a sludge issue due to previous poor maintence by the previous owner combined with scetchy repairs that left the engine open to dirty infiltration I would suspect it is a varnish/sludge issue or previous wear from neglect. Lifters are not that forgiveing of excessive wear.varnish or sludge! Lifters are also probably one of the first metalic valvetrain componets to start misfunctioning. Ford's 3.0 and 4.0 Colgne V6 are notorius for lifter issues!
Their is one unrelated thing you should check while you are under the car. Check the oil lines going to the radiator from the remote filter block and to the engine block. While this probably has nothing to do with your problem at all they are none to fail on these units at an alarming rate! So if you see your leaking at all get the lines,seals adn fitting changed ASAP!
Good Luck with the Auto-Rx!!!
Thanks for your words.
I think the problems are because of an overfilled crankcase and the filter could be just too restrictive for a remote oil filter setup.
I never had these problems with previous oil filters.
I have NO problem with the X2 seeing I use it on my other car and now my friends use them and absolutely love them.
It might just be the application concern rather than an actual problem with the filter.
I don't blame the filter, I just think with the pressure restriction incuurred through the remote oil filter assembly, I might have a situation that might be sensitive to overly restrictive and good filtering oil filters.
I might try the K&N for the next change coming up soon to see if a higher flowing filter will help me.
I think the problems are because of an overfilled crankcase and the filter could be just too restrictive for a remote oil filter setup.
I never had these problems with previous oil filters.
I have NO problem with the X2 seeing I use it on my other car and now my friends use them and absolutely love them.
It might just be the application concern rather than an actual problem with the filter.
I don't blame the filter, I just think with the pressure restriction incuurred through the remote oil filter assembly, I might have a situation that might be sensitive to overly restrictive and good filtering oil filters.
I might try the K&N for the next change coming up soon to see if a higher flowing filter will help me.
BlazerLt, Most GM engines use a filter adapter made out of sluminum that screws onto the block. THis aluminum adapater has the bypass built into it. They often leak at some point and need to be replaced. Most V6 and V8 applications are set up this way! This allows them to position the filter any way they want to with out haveing to change the casting for the block!
Now your's has and adapter on the block to allow the oil lines a place to mount. You also have the remote filter adapter under you front end that these lines attach to. If you have oil cooler then you have lines going from that to your rad. as well. The size of your hydralic lines that are external are not any smaller then what would be found internaly in the block. The adapter do not case any restriction at all as compared to the adapters that are on almost everysingle GM engine even if the filter is attached to the adapter onthe block instead of remotely.
A GM engineer would not design a system that restricted flow over pressure it goes against their design fundementals. Rember they desgned all of their crazy adapters and cooler designs they were not off the shelf from outside suppliers. They would have to list a different spec. in the service manual for this if their was a measureable diff. in presure or flow so the tech.'s could diagnois a problem. We do not see seperate spec.!
So one of the following must be true.
1) Lifters are showing signs of wear.
2) Sludge or varnishis restricting fluid flow.
3) Bad OEM bypass system
4) Weak oil pump
5) Bad ADV or Bypass in filter if applicable.
6)Clearance of bearings or lifters is increseing the time it takes for the pump to supply peak volume and build presure in system.
As someone else noted you could simply change the filter and see if the problem goes away. A PF52 would be my first choice!
Now your's has and adapter on the block to allow the oil lines a place to mount. You also have the remote filter adapter under you front end that these lines attach to. If you have oil cooler then you have lines going from that to your rad. as well. The size of your hydralic lines that are external are not any smaller then what would be found internaly in the block. The adapter do not case any restriction at all as compared to the adapters that are on almost everysingle GM engine even if the filter is attached to the adapter onthe block instead of remotely.
A GM engineer would not design a system that restricted flow over pressure it goes against their design fundementals. Rember they desgned all of their crazy adapters and cooler designs they were not off the shelf from outside suppliers. They would have to list a different spec. in the service manual for this if their was a measureable diff. in presure or flow so the tech.'s could diagnois a problem. We do not see seperate spec.!
So one of the following must be true.
1) Lifters are showing signs of wear.
2) Sludge or varnishis restricting fluid flow.
3) Bad OEM bypass system
4) Weak oil pump
5) Bad ADV or Bypass in filter if applicable.
6)Clearance of bearings or lifters is increseing the time it takes for the pump to supply peak volume and build presure in system.
As someone else noted you could simply change the filter and see if the problem goes away. A PF52 would be my first choice!
I appreciate your reply.
Don't take me as arguing with you. This is just a discussion to learn more about the system.
I talked to a local GM mechanic about this issue and he agrees that the remote filter/cooler setup does add some pressure to the system.
Adding over 5 feet of hydraulic lines, an oil cooler in the rad and the remote filter assembly will increase flow resistance and will introduce more drag for the oil pump to overcome to allow oil flow when compared to a regular oil filter screwed directly into the block.
It's not just the line size, but the longer overall path the oil has to flow through to get the oil back into the engine.
With all the other engines I have used this filter on, they screw directly into the block itself and I have never seen anny issues with this problem although they are different engines altogether.
I am just wondering if this oil filter is just introducing just enough oil flow restriction to slightly starve the hydraulic lifters of the flow they require for quiet operation.
As said previously, I have no cold startup knock nor do I get any tapping when the engine is cold idling or when the rpms are above idle.
When the engine is warm and up to temperature, if I park the truck and allow it to idle, the noise will start to appear although it has gotten a lot quieter since I drained some oil in the overfilled crankcase.
I guess only time will tell once I replace the filter for the rinse cycle.
All I could be seeing is a filter that is plugged with sludge from the Auto-RX treatment I am currently undergoing.
I will keep you guys updated on this.
This is in no way saying the X2 is a bad filter. They are actually dropping in price up here in Canada when compared to a year ago and are only CDN$2.50 more that the canadian version of the AC Delco PF52c which is more or less a WIX filter seeing Dana Manufactuing here in Canada makes pretty well all the WIX and AC Delco and many other filters for the Canadian market.
Don't take me as arguing with you. This is just a discussion to learn more about the system.
I talked to a local GM mechanic about this issue and he agrees that the remote filter/cooler setup does add some pressure to the system.
Adding over 5 feet of hydraulic lines, an oil cooler in the rad and the remote filter assembly will increase flow resistance and will introduce more drag for the oil pump to overcome to allow oil flow when compared to a regular oil filter screwed directly into the block.
It's not just the line size, but the longer overall path the oil has to flow through to get the oil back into the engine.
With all the other engines I have used this filter on, they screw directly into the block itself and I have never seen anny issues with this problem although they are different engines altogether.
I am just wondering if this oil filter is just introducing just enough oil flow restriction to slightly starve the hydraulic lifters of the flow they require for quiet operation.
As said previously, I have no cold startup knock nor do I get any tapping when the engine is cold idling or when the rpms are above idle.
When the engine is warm and up to temperature, if I park the truck and allow it to idle, the noise will start to appear although it has gotten a lot quieter since I drained some oil in the overfilled crankcase.
I guess only time will tell once I replace the filter for the rinse cycle.
All I could be seeing is a filter that is plugged with sludge from the Auto-RX treatment I am currently undergoing.
I will keep you guys updated on this.
This is in no way saying the X2 is a bad filter. They are actually dropping in price up here in Canada when compared to a year ago and are only CDN$2.50 more that the canadian version of the AC Delco PF52c which is more or less a WIX filter seeing Dana Manufactuing here in Canada makes pretty well all the WIX and AC Delco and many other filters for the Canadian market.
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