Poor man winter tires

[Spyder7]

You never mix A/S with winter tires. No matter whether the car is FWD, RWD, or where you plan to put what. Its much safer to run A/S on all 4 tires than to mix 2 winters in and think you're getting any benefit.

Pick one or the other. If money is tight and you're not going to see much snow, get 4 decent A/S tires, run them all year and rotate them.

If you look on something like tirerack you can compare reviews of different A/S tires. They don't have to be expensive to provide decent snow protection. The most accidents I've seen here were the result of a late, and heavy, snow fall. People had just swapped off their winters for their A/S tires, but continued to drive on them in the snow and ice as if they still had their winter tires on.

Winter tires make a big difference. But so does taking into account what you're driving on, and adapting your driving to suit the road conditions.

-Spyder

 

[Vikas]

I am in Mass and I run snow tires on my Nissan Maxima all year. I get about 3 years before I replace the tires. I never drive in triple digit speeds and so far the tire shop has not given me any grief on putting the T rated winter tires on the "H rated car".
Without the snow tires, it used to be quite an adventure during the winter. You get used to road noise and besides you can always open the windows and crank the NPR to drown out all the tire noise

- Vikas

 

[Ausfahrt]

Whats all this fuss about "winter" tires? I just run the same tires year-round.

 

[calvin1]

Originally Posted By: bigdreama
Whats all this fuss about "winter" tires? I just run the same tires year-round.

I was about to warn you not to cross the Cult of the Flake and Mountain but then I saw your location. KMHB!

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
You never mix A/S with winter tires. No matter whether the car is FWD, RWD, or where you plan to put what. Its much safer to run A/S on all 4 tires than to mix 2 winters in and think you're getting any benefit.


Is this a learned rhetorical response, or have you actually experienced this ..as I had for years of driving hundreds of miles PER NIGHT in wintah weathah through the dismal region of Central PA

?

 

[bigmike]

I'll be still mowing in December.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
You never mix A/S with winter tires. No matter whether the car is FWD, RWD, or where you plan to put what. Its much safer to run A/S on all 4 tires than to mix 2 winters in and think you're getting any benefit.


Is this a learned rhetorical response, or have you actually experienced this ..as I had for years of driving hundreds of miles PER NIGHT in wintah weathah through the dismal region of Central PA

?


Learned. There was an infamous (and fatal) accident where the cause was determined to be the driver's mixing 2 A/S with 2 Winter tires.

I don't need to experience that personally to know better

Some things are better learned from other's mistakes.

-Spyder

 

[Spyder7]

One real world test of mixing tire types:

"Don't I just need snow tires on the drive wheels for traction?
This myth was laid to rest when we went out on the dry test track and drove a pair of BMW 330Ci coupes, one with a full set of snow tires (Michelin Artic-Alpins) and the other with those snows on the back (the 330Ci is rear-drive) and high-performance rubber in front (Michelin Pilot XGT H4s).

This was definitely an eye-opener. Before we ran each car, we shut off the stability control system and were warned that one of the cars might end up biting us (car-guy talk for a car sliding out of control). Taking the 330 with the four snows through the course, the car felt solid and predictable. Running the 330 with the Pilots in front and Alpins in the back, the tail wagged increasingly as we zigzagged through the cones and then the car spun 180 degrees. Whoa! We drove home the point of the test with an exclamation point made in rubber marks on the track.

Mismatched tires can (and will, if pushed) adversely affect a car's handling; with the ends of the car having differing levels of grip, it is more apt to slide the tail or even spin out. Had we been driving in the snow, the rear tires probably would've had no problem propelling the car but steering and braking wouldn't fare as well — the high-performance Pilots would've washed out as the snow would easily pack their small grooves, essentially turning them into slicks. Not good on snow, slush or ice."

from:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/articles/100811/article.html

-Spyder

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
You never mix A/S with winter tires. No matter whether the car is FWD, RWD, or where you plan to put what. Its much safer to run A/S on all 4 tires than to mix 2 winters in and think you're getting any benefit.


Is this a learned rhetorical response, or have you actually experienced this ..as I had for years of driving hundreds of miles PER NIGHT in wintah weathah through the dismal region of Central PA

?


Learned. There was an infamous (and fatal) accident where the cause was determined to be the driver's mixing 2 A/S with 2 Winter tires.

I don't need to experience that personally to know better

Some things are better learned from other's mistakes.

-Spyder

Mixing the tires does make the driver a much more important factor in accident avoidence. If someone is aware of the potential for some fancy driving to avoid a spin, they might actually drive more safely than with matching tires.
For example, I know my all season tires are very bad in the rain, so I leave more space and drive slower leaving me more time to identify and react to a situation.
Here's a neat graphic to illustrate what happens at increasing speeds if a kid runs out in front of you 45 yards away.

 

[rslifkin]

Exactly. Whether or not mismatched tires will cause an accident depends somewhat on the car's handling tendencies, and mostly on the driver's skill. If they know that they have snows on the front, A/S on the rear, and they drive accordingly, and can handle oversteer when it happens (as they won't be driving hard enough to cause uncontrollable oversteer), they'll do fine. Give the car to someone else, however, and they can easily do a few 360s right into a tree.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
"Poor Man's" winter tire and Nokian are mutually exclusive concepts! Nokian WRs in the small size run well above $100/tire. They are expensive.


^^^^^^ This is VERY true!! (But I still think Nokians, especially their full winter tires, are worth every penny.

)

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Exactly. Whether or not mismatched tires will cause an accident depends somewhat on the car's handling tendencies, and mostly on the driver's skill. If they know that they have snows on the front, A/S on the rear, and they drive accordingly, and can handle oversteer when it happens (as they won't be driving hard enough to cause uncontrollable oversteer), they'll do fine. Give the car to someone else, however, and they can easily do a few 360s right into a tree.


This is a lot of "ifs" and "whether or nots." I gave the hypothetical involving mixing tires, here's a real life 1st hand example from a few year's back on 4 all season's:

Was doing about 90 km/h on the TCH during a medium snowfall at the end of January. The highway was reasonably clear with light snow on the shoulder. I was in the left lane over-taking a van, when he suddenly swerved in front of me. Until the swerve I hadn't noticed that he was tail-gating the small car in front, which had braked for an exit. The van cut in front of me to avoid hitting the car in front.

I braked, the brakes locked, car immediately began to skid toward the shoulder. There was, at 90 km/h, no time to correct the skid. It took less than 2 seconds to touch the shoulder, and as soon as the tires hit the snow there the car flipped and rolled into the median dividing the highway.

Lesson learned the hard way. Insurance covered the car, the 3 week rental, and the physio bill (close to $10,000 total), but because the other 2 cars kept going I was deemed at fault. I'm paying it indirectly when my new policy increased by 75% - for liability alone, instead of the full coverage that was on the other car.

The following winter I bought studded tires. This car I have now uses a different tire size but came with 4 good winters (no studs).

"Ifs" and "whether" don't mean anything when it counts, and reflexes kick in and there's no time for any amount of knowledge, experience, or skill to compensate. I was at least lucky enough that, because the median was filled with a few feet of snow, that the impact and roll was cushioned well enough for me to walk away and take the lesson from it. Lots of people aren't so lucky.

-Spyder

 

[Ursae_Majoris]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
"Poor Man's" winter tire and Nokian are mutually exclusive concepts! Nokian WRs in the small size run well above $100/tire. They are expensive.


^^^^^^ This is VERY true!! (But I still think Nokians, especially their full winter tires, are worth every penny.

)

I've had Nokian WR on my Isuzu since 2006, they have almost 40K miles on them. I still have 5/8th of the tread left. They can handle ice, snow, rain, muddy old logging roads like no other tires I've used. I keep them on year around and I have never needed/wished for dedicated studded winter tires.

 

[Spyder7]

Dedicated studs aren't necessary if you have good winter tires. This year I will stick with the winter tires that came with my current car rather than replace perfectly good tires with studs, that aren't needed (nice bonus, not essential).

My point was only that mixing winter and A/S tires based on perceived ability to learn their inherently unpredictable nature is a false sense of security. Maybe when one has this combo long enough, they might do. But for someone who's never tried it, I would never recommend it simply because the day solid, predictable traction counts may come long before the quirks of this setup is learned. Then its too late.

In my case, it was my first winter driving on anything but dedicated winter tires (former gf's car who considered A/S "good enough"), and I'd only driven it a few times in snow (it was late coming that year) before the accident I mentioned. Not a cheap lesson to learn, but it could have been worse. I won't touch A/S tires now once winter comes. Where I'm "essential staff" I don't get to pick and choose the weather I drive in. For those who can, or who have to rarely deal with much snow or ice (or both), maybe 4 A/S are good enough. Some A/S are definitely better than others on ice and snow.

-Spyder

 

[rslifkin]

Any combo like that, or really, any new vehicle setup, requires plenty of playing around in a large, open parking lot to get a feel for what it will and won't do, and how it reacts to different situations. First good snow after I got my Jeep, and I was taking it sideways across a parking lot to see how it reacted.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
One real world test of mixing tire types:

"Don't I just need snow tires on the drive wheels for traction?
This myth was laid to rest when we went out on the dry test track and drove a pair of BMW 330Ci coupes, one with a full set of snow tires (Michelin Artic-Alpins) and the other with those snows on the back (the 330Ci is rear-drive) and high-performance rubber in front (Michelin Pilot XGT H4s).

This was definitely an eye-opener. Before we ran each car, we shut off the stability control system and were warned that one of the cars might end up biting us (car-guy talk for a car sliding out of control). Taking the 330 with the four snows through the course, the car felt solid and predictable. Running the 330 with the Pilots in front and Alpins in the back, the tail wagged increasingly as we zigzagged through the cones and then the car spun 180 degrees. Whoa! We drove home the point of the test with an exclamation point made in rubber marks on the track.

Mismatched tires can (and will, if pushed) adversely affect a car's handling; with the ends of the car having differing levels of grip, it is more apt to slide the tail or even spin out. Had we been driving in the snow, the rear tires probably would've had no problem propelling the car but steering and braking wouldn't fare as well — the high-performance Pilots would've washed out as the snow would easily pack their small grooves, essentially turning them into slicks. Not good on snow, slush or ice."

from:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/safety/articles/100811/article.html

-Spyder


These are two Euro artsy fartsy high end paycheck nobles talking ideals there. No one I have EVER KNOWN have put snows on all 4 corners on RWD. I have SEEN people recommend it.

Go tell the average 2wd pickup truck owner to put HIGH DRAG snow tires on non-drive wheels. It's not going to happen.

I'm going to apologies ahead of time. Some people are nature's way of saying that they make too much money.


When I ran snows (they were "the hot lick" hydrophyle tires at the time) my Rabbit came with 155r13 ..I upgraded the rims and tires to 175/70r13 ..WAY bigger foot print and WAY LOWER ground pressure. Floating was the norm.

I managed 70mph on glare ice on the NJ TP while there were hundreds of drivers doing 35mph all honking their horns and flashing their lights. Could I stop? Not a chance. I wouldn't have done much better with 4 snows ..and since most of you are too young, FWD was relatively NEW to mainstream America and studded tires were moving out of vogue. None of the Euro-tyres were pinned for studding.

There was a time between stone knives and bear skins and our current schools of thought. Most of those schools of thought are geared toward the lowest common denominator. Technology compensating for lack of knowledge.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

No one I have EVER KNOWN have put snows on all 4 corners on RWD.

I run snows on all 4 corners of my 530i.

Quote:

Go tell the average 2wd pickup truck owner to put HIGH DRAG snow tires on non-drive wheels. It's not going to happen.

Not sure about pickups, but when it comes to RWD passenger vehicles, this video comes to mind:


And before you say it, yes, TR is in the business of selling tires, so they may not be the most objective source, so here is another video from APA...

The interesting part starts at around 4:30:


They cover RWD pick-ups as well.

Quote:
I'm going to apologies ahead of time. Some people are nature's way of saying that they make too much money.

It's cheap insurance, IMO. It cost an extra $150 to get two additional winter tires for my car. I'd rather pay that than risk a potential accident which may cost me my insurance deductible (more than $150), not to mention insurance rate hikes and wasted time while the car is getting fixed.

 

[rslifkin]

I'd agree, 4 snows is best. Everyone I know that puts snows on a RWD car (only a few people) puts them on all 4 corners. I only know 1 or 2 people that put snows on FWD, and they do all 4 corners as well.

 

[Spyder7]

Interesting videos. Those illustrations should put the debate to rest - except for those who are so convinced of their own experience/skill (or luck) that there's still no difference, despite the visible evidence to the contrary. Then its like debating that the moon landings really took place with the skeptic who's convinced otherwise - pointless waste of time.

The only thing debated up in this little corner of the world is whether or not its worth studding new winter tires. The need for them (and I can't think of anyone I've ever met here who thought only 2 were good enough) is largely not debated. A small minority here run A/S year round, but they're quick to add that they don't drive when the weather or roads are bad.

The major difference I notice with studs was that I could climb hills, in the underpowered 1.5L Mazda I had, that had the cars in front of me either spinning so bad they got stuck, or were forced to turn off because they couldn't make it up the grade. Beyond that their a nice bonus, but not essential. For daily, year round driving here, 4 winter tires are just a given - common sense.

-Spyder

 

[eljefino]

I had a couple sets of studs and several winter tire sets without. The compromise drives me crazy the 90% of the time the roads aren't snow covered. As in, white, dampening the horrendous noisy racket.

The nice thing about studs is they break up glare ice; if everybody ran them, they'd help the public works department. But it's sort of a favor to the next guy.

I hoped they'd be dog toenails, really digging in to surfaces. Not so.