Use a 100% formulation of POE and addatives? Instead of blending it with other base stocks?
Ken in WA
Ken in WA
POE question why not?
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Usually a blend is better for a bunch of reasons and the Additive package comed in an oil.
Tom...................!
Ken.
Ken.
Originally Posted By: Ken42
Tom...................!
Ken.
Ken, not to be picky, but Pennzoil in your signature should have 2 N's in it.
Tom...................!
Ken.
My main concern would be seal compatibility, although that depends on which POE is used (there are many!). Cost is another factor - the best formulation in the world is of no value if you can't sell it. Adding PAO or Group III+ will help balance the seal issue and lower the cost.
Car engines do not need a 100% POE based oil as they do not run hot enough to utilize the key benefits. POEs will deliver diminishing returns in a mild environment as their main attributes are very high temperature stability and low volatility. Their other benefits, such as high lubricity, natural detergency & dispersancy, additive solubility, and cleanliness, can be achieved at lower doses in car engines.
POEs are rarely used anymore in synthetic engine oils due to the high price, and less need in Group III based products. When they were used (with PAOs) the dosage was generally 10-20%, the exception being Redline who state their oils are mostly POE based. The Mobil 1 line has largely substituted ANs for POEs in their Group III+/PAO formulations. ANs will balance seals and solubilize additives, but do not offer the other benefits of POEs to the same degree.
The two biggest drivers for most motor oil formulators are specifications and cost. High doses of POEs do not fit either.
Tom NJ
Car engines do not need a 100% POE based oil as they do not run hot enough to utilize the key benefits. POEs will deliver diminishing returns in a mild environment as their main attributes are very high temperature stability and low volatility. Their other benefits, such as high lubricity, natural detergency & dispersancy, additive solubility, and cleanliness, can be achieved at lower doses in car engines.
POEs are rarely used anymore in synthetic engine oils due to the high price, and less need in Group III based products. When they were used (with PAOs) the dosage was generally 10-20%, the exception being Redline who state their oils are mostly POE based. The Mobil 1 line has largely substituted ANs for POEs in their Group III+/PAO formulations. ANs will balance seals and solubilize additives, but do not offer the other benefits of POEs to the same degree.
The two biggest drivers for most motor oil formulators are specifications and cost. High doses of POEs do not fit either.
Tom NJ
That was very well said, Tom. Thank you for the info
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Originally Posted By: Ken42
Tom...................!
Ken.
Ken, not to be picky, but Pennzoil in your signature should have 2 N's in it.
Happy JohNNy?
Ken
Originally Posted By: Ken42
Tom...................!
Ken.
Happy JohNNy?
Ken
Wow Tom thanks
That is very interesting and good info to know.
So RedLine is the odd person out cause of their use of mostly POE
basestocks wonder if this wonder elixir is used in all their
oils?
Ken
That is very interesting and good info to know.
So RedLine is the odd person out cause of their use of mostly POE
basestocks wonder if this wonder elixir is used in all their
oils?
Ken
Thanks Tom for that concise, great explanation!
But does not Motul claim their 300V formulations to be 100% diester base stocks as well?? (As unfeasible as that may sound/be in actuality?)
But does not Motul claim their 300V formulations to be 100% diester base stocks as well?? (As unfeasible as that may sound/be in actuality?)
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
But does not Motul claim their 300V formulations to be 100% diester base stocks as well?? (As unfeasible as that may sound/be in actuality?)
I don't know which esters Motul is using these days. I haven't called on them in nearly 20 years, and at that time they were using a dimer type diester - not nearly as high temperature stable as POEs, but having good physical properties, lubricity, and seal compatibility.
Their website describes the esters in their 300V as "complex esters ans polymer esters", vague descriptions usually used for high viscosity esters as opposed to base oils. Their statement about 100% diesters is in the past tense, so it's not clear if it applies to current formulations:
"The reputation of Motul products for quality and performance was founded on the skills and experience of our engineers in the formulating of 100% synthetic ester-bases lubricants."
In any case, it's quite feasible to make a specialty racing formulation based on 100% esters if choosen carefully, and they may very well be doing so
Tom NJ
But does not Motul claim their 300V formulations to be 100% diester base stocks as well?? (As unfeasible as that may sound/be in actuality?)
I don't know which esters Motul is using these days. I haven't called on them in nearly 20 years, and at that time they were using a dimer type diester - not nearly as high temperature stable as POEs, but having good physical properties, lubricity, and seal compatibility.
Their website describes the esters in their 300V as "complex esters ans polymer esters", vague descriptions usually used for high viscosity esters as opposed to base oils. Their statement about 100% diesters is in the past tense, so it's not clear if it applies to current formulations:
"The reputation of Motul products for quality and performance was founded on the skills and experience of our engineers in the formulating of 100% synthetic ester-bases lubricants."
In any case, it's quite feasible to make a specialty racing formulation based on 100% esters if choosen carefully, and they may very well be doing so
Tom NJ
^^^^^Thanks yet again, Tom!!
So if I was able to say con Redline out of 4.5 quarts of their POE and poured it into my engine what would be the result?
Besides being nothing to hold the dirt and protect the metal parts from contact. I think it would be really clean and need a few seals replaced cause they would be swelled into oblivion.
Mind you I would never do this to MY car.
Ken
Besides being nothing to hold the dirt and protect the metal parts from contact. I think it would be really clean and need a few seals replaced cause they would be swelled into oblivion.
Mind you I would never do this to MY car.
Ken
Hello Tom,
In your opinion, would there be any benefit to a high content POE in an ultra long OCI oil? First assuming that one had a high level of filtration (bypass type) to make long drains more viable.
Or is there no advantage over PAO/Grp III in these cases?
Thanks.
In your opinion, would there be any benefit to a high content POE in an ultra long OCI oil? First assuming that one had a high level of filtration (bypass type) to make long drains more viable.
Or is there no advantage over PAO/Grp III in these cases?
Thanks.
POE would clean better and hold up better but I think you would run out of addatatives.
I use it just cause I can.
And the Transmission fluid works wonders in my car. Redline MTL
Ken
I use it just cause I can.
And the Transmission fluid works wonders in my car. Redline MTL
Ken
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Hello Tom,
In your opinion, would there be any benefit to a high content POE in an ultra long OCI oil? First assuming that one had a high level of filtration (bypass type) to make long drains more viable.
Or is there no advantage over PAO/Grp III in these cases?
Thanks.
Yes, if I were going to run an ultra long OCI I would want the cleanest, most stable base oils available, along with a very robust additive package. A high POE content, balanced with some Grp III+ and/or Grp IV, would be ideal IMO. Actually I am running just such an oil right now (experimental) but do not plan on an ultra long OCI.
Tom
Hello Tom,
In your opinion, would there be any benefit to a high content POE in an ultra long OCI oil? First assuming that one had a high level of filtration (bypass type) to make long drains more viable.
Or is there no advantage over PAO/Grp III in these cases?
Thanks.
Yes, if I were going to run an ultra long OCI I would want the cleanest, most stable base oils available, along with a very robust additive package. A high POE content, balanced with some Grp III+ and/or Grp IV, would be ideal IMO. Actually I am running just such an oil right now (experimental) but do not plan on an ultra long OCI.
Tom
Thanks Tom.
What you running? Off the shelf or one of your secret receipes?
Ken
What you running? Off the shelf or one of your secret receipes?
Ken
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Secret recipe.
Tom
Tom
I want some! Did you cook this up in your
Kitchen? What did the wife think of this!
Ken
Kitchen? What did the wife think of this!
Ken
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