Play in water pump shaft bearings

[Jimmy9190]

I have a similar post here about water pump failure. I am starting a new post though because I have somewhat of a different question now.

I removed my serpentine belt and checked all the pulleys under my hood-power steering, idler, alternator, a/c, they all spin fine, smooth with no noise. I grabbed hold of the water moump pulley on the sides and tried to push it in and out, it was solid that way, no movement or play in it at all. But when I move the pulley sideways, left and right I can feel a small amount of movement in either direction. It's just a grunt either way but looking at the top surface of the w/p pulley, there is definitely some movement there.

My question is, how much play is acceptable/within normal specs? Shouldn't the pump shaft be solid and stationary with no movement or play in and out and side to side too?

Thanks for your help and putting up with my water pump questions. I do appreciate it very much.

 

[SLCraig]

I've personally only seen water pump shaft play on failed pumps.
Have not touched one on a Dodge truck though.

 

[rslifkin]

There should be no movement. That would tell me that either the pulley is loose, or the pump bearings are starting to go (and it will start leaking soon).

 

[Kestas]

If they are that loose, the bearings should be spalled. You may be able to feel the roughness of the spalling by rotating the shaft.

rslifkin is correct, loose bearings will cause a wobble on the seal, which will enlarge the seal and cause premature leaking.

 

[Jimmy9190]

Thanks for the info. I have just had a hunch and a suspicion that my water pump is about worn out. My truck has had a noise for the last few weeks, especially when it is cold or driven for the first few miles in the morning. I can't really describe the noise, doesn't sound like a howling or grinding/squeal like a bad bearing. It sounds more like a scraping/scratching sound. Kind of like what you might hear listening to the engine from underneath, as the crankshaft turns in the oil pan, if that makes any sense. But the noise is from the top area of the engine, not the bottom.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[jhMalibu]

I had a 94 Ram with the 6 in it. There was play in the water pump shaft and I had that noise you are describing.

Best to get it fixed.

Had to replace two serpentine belts before I clued in (the edges would get chewed).

 

[willix]

The sealb bearing cassettes are failing and its only a matter of time till it breeches the seals.

 

[Jimmy9190]

Thanks for your help here. I just got off the phone with Napa, they had most of the parts I need, and ordered a few they didn't have on the shelf. I am replacing both radiator hoses, the radiator cap, both heater hoses, the bypass hose, heater bypass tube and the water pump. This is a job I only want to do once and I would rather just replace all the hoses while I am at it.

I have to get the upper radiator hose at the Dodge dealer, the closest Napa that had one was in Tampa but my store could not get that one delivered for me overnight. My Napa could have ordered one in, but would not receive it until probably Tuesday. I need to do this job tomorrow so I went for the dealer part. It cost about another 20 bucks at Dodge but that beats a 100 mile round trip to Tampa on a Friday afternoon.

I'm going to try to get started tonight after work and get everything apart, so I will have the old parts to compare to the new parts at Napa tomorrow morning.

Thanks everybody for your help on this.

 

[rslifkin]

+1 for replacing that bypass hose. It's just about impossible to do without pulling everything apart. If you pull the accessory bracket, leave the Alt and A/C compressor bolted to the bracket, and simply place it all out of the way (lines still connected). In my Jeep, it ends up on the battery (with a thick towel under it).

You won't need to hit the block drains. With the rad fully drained (until it stops dripping), you'll get no more than a pint or so when you pull the pump (have a pan under it).

When you put the heater tube back in, make sure the O-ring is in place, and a light smear of RTV on the end of the tube before insertion usually helps. Most of it will squeeze out around the tube where it goes into the pump, but the little film in there seems to reduce leaking issues.

The whole process is a bit of a PITA, but not too bad. Being a V6, you should have plenty of space in front of the engine to work once you get the fan off. Gotta be more than I had when I did a plenum gasket and water pump (longer engine, smaller engine bay, and an e-fan in the way).

 

[Jimmy9190]

Thanks for the tips. I have read on a couple of Dodge forums it is always best to replace the bypass hose so you don't have to take it all back apart again for a $5.00 hose problem. That's why I am doing all the hoses, clamps, etc. I only want to do this job once and be done with the pump and hoses. My thermostat is fairly new and works fine, so I will leave it as is. It's a Napa Super Stat, should be OK for a while.

 

[caravanmike]

please post picks of your work! mike

 

[Jimmy9190]

OK will do. I started out earlier tonight, took a couple of "before" pics before doing anything else or removing any parts. I got sidetracked though when I went to remove the upper radiator shroud housing that has the integrated coolant overflow tank and washer fluid reservoir. There are 3 mounting bolts that are pressed into the housing and the lower one snapped out of its mount and put a small crack in the coolant overflow tank, leaking coolant everywhere. I got it out and patched it up with black RTV, I think it would hold but I'd like to be thorough and just replace the part. I'll call the local dealer in the morning just to get a price on a new one but I have a feeling I'm headed to the junk yard tomorrow before anything else. I'm headed back out to the garage now to see what I can get done before bed time. I want to at least drain the radiator, remove the lower rad hose and heater hoses so I can compare them to the hoses at Napa tomorrow and be sure I get the right parts. If I can get the pump and bypass hose out tonight so I can compare those too it would be good but it's late already. Tonight I also had to take a break for dinner with my girlfriend and stopped at the store on the way home, picked up 2 gallons of distilled water. We needed a few other things too and that saves me a trip tomorrow.

 

[Jimmy9190]

Here's a few pics from last night.
Engine before I got started:

Fan shroud, overflow reservoir removed:

Alternator removed, AC compressor moved out of the way. I used some stiff wire to attach the compressor to the firewall so it won't move around or fall and get damaged:

Water pump removed, still have some gasket scraping to do today:

Back side of old water pump:

This is the area I RTV'd on the overflow tank:

This is what it is supposed to look like. The mounting bolts for the fan shroud are pressed into the plastic on the reservoir tank. On the one that broke out it came out of its hole in the plastic and put a tiny crack in it, coolant was leaking out pretty slow but steady:

I have more to do today. Will try to post pics again later when it's all back together. Thanks for all your help here.

 

[Cutehumor]

excellent pics. I have to do this job on my 96 sunfire, but have been putting it off due to the freezing weather. let us know if you have any problems with the new water pump.

 

[Jimmy9190]

Thanks. Napa didn't get in the 2 heater hoses I need. I will say that the bearings in my old pump were definitely shot. There was a lot of grinding and noise and play in the pulley shaft on the old pump once I removed it and spun the pulley by hand. New pump is very quiet and firm when turned and the pump shaft has no movement whatsoever.

I spent the day going to Napa, then the junk yard to get the replacement reservoir/overflow tank. Local Dodge dealer's price on the reservior/shroud was $170.00. I got one from the junk yard for $45.00. Then I called a Napa store that did not have the heater hoses in stock either but they said the computer showed both hoses in stock at the Tampa warehouse store. I drove all the way there, about 40 miles from the junk yard, to find out they are the wrong hoses. Neither one matched my OEM heater hoses. I even tried going through the hoses area at Autozone, to try to find 2 or 3 hoses I could cut and mate together to make up hoses that might work, no such luck. That would not have been reliable anyway. Dodge dealer says he has to order the OEM hoses from their main warehouse and the 2 hoses together would cost about $150.00. I'm just going to reinstall my original hoses. They are in good shape, and later I can look for them at Rockauto, a few Mopar parts sites or some other online parts store. It's not absolutely necessary to replace them right now, I was just trying to be proactive.

I am worn out from all the running around and everything today. I did clean up the junk yard reservoir and transfer my washer fluid pump and washer fluid level sensor to it and finished scraping the old gasket material off the motor but that is all I am doing today. I'll get a fresh start on it tomorrow after I am better rested.

 

[Errtt]

^^^ All that running around makes a job a lot longer. Wouldn't have been so bad if they had the hoses you wanted. I hate when that happens.

 

[rslifkin]

My heater hoses are the only ones I haven't replaced in the system. Partly because they're in good shape still, and partly because they're easy to change. Plus, they can be a bit of a pain to find/get.

 

[Jimmy9190]

This gets worse...I reassembled everything today, started the truck, turned on the heater full blast, let it idle and began looking and checking very carefully for leaks. Everything up top looked good to begin with, I put the rad cap on and let it keep idling, looked underneath for leaks and while I was down there hot coolant dripped on my face. Looked up and saw a good stream of it leaking out the hole on the pump where the heater bypass tube goes. I pulled the tube out, the O-ring is chewed up pretty badly, is chafed and has some bad cuts in it. Thinking I did that myself when I twisted and turned it when I seated it in the hole, I went to AZ and got another bypass tube. Installed it, same leaking problem. Stuck my finger down in the bypass tube hole, the surface feels smooth but there has to be something in there that is damaging the O-ring. So now I have to take it all back apart again and see if Napa will exchange the pump and tube, not to mention taking a day off work tomorrow to do it, but I have no choice. Napa was closed today and even if they had been open, this happened too late in the day to get anything done about it.

The other problem is I saw a fair amount of white smoke out the tail pipe today when I had the truck running the first time. It didn't smell sweet like coolant, I hope it was just condensation, there was a small puddle of water on the garage floor. I have not driven my truck since Friday. The second time I had it idling I didn't see any smoke at all. It was cool here today, about 60 degrees outside. If anyone knows what that might be, I am all ears.

Headed back out now to start taking everything back apart again..Sheesh...

 

[rslifkin]

Try the RTV thing on the end of the tube. They're annoyingly prone to leakage, and once they've been disturbed from the factory assembly, are a PITA to seal up again. Also, make sure to push the tube straight in, no twisting. It's supposed to be a pretty tight fit, so twisting can tear the o-ring.

When I did mine, I didn't even both with a new tube and/or o-ring, I just coated the end in RTV, stuck it in, and let it cure for an hour before I filled the system. It squeezed a bit of RTV out around the tube when I inserted it, but it hasn't leaked a drop in about 6500 miles since I had it apart.

 

[Jimmy9190]

Thanks for the tip about the RTV on the end of the tube. I coated it with the same Permatex 1A fast drying RTV I used on the gasket. It is supposed to be made for water pumps and thermostat gaskets. I have the truck just about all back together now, I left the fan shroud off so I can check for leaks. I am taking a break for the next half hour or so to let the RTV on the heater hose tube finish curing. I hope it holds this time.

I went back to Napa with the water pump this morning, showed them the rough surface inside the hole for the bypass tube, they did not have another pump for my truck in stock so I had to drive 8 miles away to the next nearest Napa, and the pump there was the same. Really rough and jagged surface inside the tube hole. It looks like really bad burrs from where they drilled the hole and it's down at the bottom of the hole right where the o-ring seats. Very bad workmanship. The strange thing was we looked at a Reman pump and it was fine. But I don't want to use a reman water pump. Also the bypass tube they sent with the Napa pump does not mount to the bolt on the AC/Alternator cradle either. The mounting flange is not in the right spot and I had to cut part of it off and use a big washer to hold it in place. Last night when the tube was leaking I bought another one at Autozone, it had the same problems - it leaked and the mounting flange was off position. I went today and bought an OEM tube at the Dodge dealer. $29.10., almost 3 times the price of the Napa and AZ tube. But it mounted correctly and I am praying to God it doesn't leak.

I returned the Napa water pump and went to Autozone and bought a new Duralast pump, it was $58.00. It fit the truck perfectly and looks to be very well-built. The bypass tube hole is clean and smooth all the way in. And it says right on the side of the box, Made in USA. It even says "Exported to Mexico" too. It has a lifetime warranty.

I'm going back now to finish the job. I hope to God I am able to posy later today that all is well with my truck. This water pump has turned out to be an ordeal I won't soon forget.

Thanks for the help here.