Plasic syncro's and AW/EP chemistry

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Does tha AW/EP chemistry affect plastic syncromeshes a lot, like they might metal ones? and are they as effective to prevent wear with these?

I'm not only interested in Phosphor or zinc, but also organic AW chemistry.
 
I read of polymer bearing cages, but not syncro. Ten years ago I would say 'no such thing, buddy' but I'm not well read on new trans tech to comment. Ceratin oils can soften certain polymers. Ask BMW about vanos failures ... and my '98 M roadster was one of 'em.
 
Please explain "plastic" synchros.

Are you referring to composite synchros?

There are carbon-carbon and carbon-fiber synchros, there are solid brass synchros, and there are sintered-brass synchros.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Please explain "plastic" synchros.

Are you referring to composite synchros?

There are carbon-carbon and carbon-fiber synchros, there are solid brass synchros, and there are sintered-brass synchros.


I still prefer solid brass synchros for daily drivers and carbon-carbon or carbon-fiber synchros for racing.

There are also sintered-composite synchros.

There are also Kevlar reinforced cellulose synchros.

You need to do some research and identify the material involved before a clear answer can be given.
 
I don't have issues yet with mine, but some people using the manual transmission do (I have the twin clutch automatic version of the same box). The plastic/composite syncro's apprently get replaced by metal (sintered or solid brass) if there are complaints within the warranty period. The same fluid would be reused.

A lot of people claim they get much better shifting after changing the factory (filled for life) fluid Tutela transmission gearforce with Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle GL-4 75w90.

From a VOA here, it seems Castrol uses an organic AW package mostly. But the viscosity is also a lot higher when the fluid is warm, obviously (75w vs 75w-90). It's mostly the shifting when cold that's bad though (below 40°C).

I'll try to investigate some more about the materials used
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I don't have issues yet with mine, but some people using the manual transmission do (I have the twin clutch automatic version of the same box). The plastic/composite syncro's apprently get replaced by metal (sintered or solid brass) if there are complaints within the warranty period. The same fluid would be reused.

A lot of people claim they get much better shifting after changing the factory (filled for life) fluid Tutela transmission gearforce with Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle GL-4 75w90.


From a VOA here, it seems Castrol uses an organic AW package mostly. But the viscosity is also a lot higher when the fluid is warm, obviously (75w vs 75w-90). It's mostly the shifting when cold that's bad though (below 40°C).

I'll try to investigate some more about the materials used


Are we talking about verifiable evidence that synchro assemblies are falling apart or are we talking shiftability issues?
 
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shiftability issues where the manufacturer changes the material of the syncros used, which solves the issues in 70% of the cases. 20% sees an improvement and about 10% sees no change in shifting performance.

A very expensive solution after the 2 years manufacture warranty are over. changing the fluid tothe Castrol seems to get the same success rate, and is a lot cheaper obviously.

I'm planning a fluid change within the next few weeks and we have the Castrol fluid at work which I'm allowed to use FOC. So would be nice (sic) to have at least an informed opinion about what could be happening. My car uses a dual dry clutch automatic so the gearbox has more time to wait for the synchronisation to happen, which likely masks any issues.
 
Ok, well first of all, there are no "plastic" synchros.

Some synchros have polymer or polymeric binders in their composite material makeup.

Sometimes shift "feel" will change with different synchro materials.

Do you have a link to an Industry Mag or such that describes this situation you are speaking of? Not looking for Blogs as they generally contain incorrect info.

I can tell you this: Our MTF's have never damaged or destroyed ANY synchro, no matter what material.

My suspicion meter goes up in cases like this because it is easier to blame a lubricant than it is to blame it on poor design and material selection.
 
The syncro's aren't damaged or destroyed, there's only shiftability issues. As a mechanic I absolutely agree that syncro destruction is totally on the driver or manufacturing errors. But I have noticed that shift feel can change dramatically between different fluids.

Plastic is a the most direct translation I could come up with. Manmade material would be better I suppose.

The boxes sometimes refuse to shift at all, with the worst offenders, until there's some heat in the oil or mechanics.

No links to industry mags either, but I'll see what I can come up with.

But as a side note: would a conventional AW package be able to put an AW layer on top of a composite syncro?

The organic AW chemistry uses Polar fluids, right? How would they handle the composite syncro's?

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/gearbox-C635.html

It's the 3-cone syncro's that have the issue, and where the materials are changed.
 
Not trying to be picky here, but trying to determine the real issue, and we call the non-metallic materials "composite materials."

Different viscosity fluids will affect shiftability, and in some cases, remarkably, depending on design and ambient temperature.

The friction modification chemistry for the synchros (different than the friction modification FM for MPG) sits at the synchro surfaces and allows a shearing effect to take place until the synchros have mated or "locked" fully.

The anti-wear film (AW) is a film that protects ferrous metals such as gears, bearings, and shifter forks from excess wear.

The gearbox you linked to is a Transaxle since it contains within it a differential that is generally able to work effectively with GL-4 rated and dedicated MTFs.

Quote:
Shifter Assembly: The gears resting on the top shaft, the input shaft, are locked onto that shaft and rotate at the same rpm as the engine. The bottom output shaft has synchronizers “splined” to this shaft, so they can move around as the gear ratio is changed. The gears on the output (bottom) shaft are allowed to rotate freely on the output shaft or on small roller or “needle” bearings, depending on the horsepower transmitted and the design. The output shaft will rotate at various rpms depending on gear selection. In first gear, for example, you want low output shaft rpm and high torque.

The shifter moves the associated linkage which connects to the shifter forks. The linkages position the shifter forks, and effectively “programs” the shifter forks in order to select the required gear ratio. I.E., for each shift lever position, the shifter forks are moved around to drive the splined synchronizers on the output shaft. The shifter forks have a bore so they can slide on the guide rods. There is a specified clearance between the shifter forks’ bore and the shifter fork guide rods. Lubricant effects: Too high a viscosity lubricant and the shifting will be hard and sluggish. More force will be required to go from one gear to another. Too thin an oil and the forks will wear, the clearances will increase, and the shifting will become sloppy and uncertain. The correct mix of base oil viscosities is needed here to insure good cold weather and hot weather shifting. Synthetics excel here because of their high viscosity index.

Synchronizer: The locking mechanism for any individual gear consists of a collar on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth or “dogs” on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference; one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. (One collar typically serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects the other) In our illustration from above, the bottom or output shaft has splines that mate with the synchronizer “collar.” The synchronizer collar moves transversely on the splines, positioned by the shifter fork. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch which is attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings also called blocker rings. Notice, before locking and speed synchronization, a lot of shearing takes place at the interfaces and for the reasons given above. Most synchronizer materials are of brass, but newer synchronizers can be made of strengthened graphite composites. Lubricant effects: A special Friction Modifier (FM) additive is incorporated into the base oil to allow just the right amount of friction before engagement. I.E., the FM gives rise to a specific coefficient of friction (COF) to allow engagement without “crunching.” Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF) DO NOT have these specialized FM’s. Note, the specialized FM used in manual transmissions is NOT the same FM used in Limited Slip Differentials, nor is it the same FM used in Automatic Transmissions, nor is it the same FM used in engine oils. It is important to understand that there are different FM chemistries for different automotive applications!



Manual Transmission Fluids and Technology
 
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Could the aging of the factory fill oil cause thickening of the viscosity? the shifting problems definitely get less when the oil gets warmer.

The castrol is as close to the Tutela oil viscosity when cold as it gets, but obviously a l;ot higher when warm. Though 15Cst vs & Cst isn't going to matter much if the fluid still works at 100+ cst (cold)
 
As oil warms up, the kinematic viscosity goes down to a thinner lube.

A manual transmission oil usually shears the oil to a lower (thinner) lube viscosity than when it was new.

So if shifting improves when lube is hot or old, that tells me the viscosity of the fill need to be reduced to a 75W85 such as:

Redline 75W85 PDS

You get the same AW protection as a 75W90 GL-4 MTF.
 
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So, does the MANF. spec a 7.0cSt fluid or a 75W90 fluid?

The Tutelo is a 7.0 cSt fluid which is the same viscosity hot as an ATF.

If the transmission is worn, it may well work better with a thicker oil, so:

Quote:
I would try this:

Redline 75W85 PDS

You get the same AW protection as a 75W90 GL-4 MTF.


So if this your personal vehicle that is having problems or are you just relaying info you read somewhere?
 
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the manufacturer specs a 7 cst fluid.

I don't have any problems, but I have a dual dry clutch transmission based on the same gearbox. Due to how a dual clutch transmision works, you won't easily get apparent syncro issues.

The same fluid is specced in the manual and the dual clutch transmission.

The manual transmissions seem to work better with the thicker castrol fluid.

Problems are there from new usually, they don't get better or worse with age.

I'll try to find the redline 75w85, but it's rarer than hen's teeth here.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Please explain "plastic" synchros.

Are you referring to composite synchros?

There are carbon-carbon and carbon-fiber synchros, there are solid brass synchros, and there are sintered-brass synchros.


I still prefer solid brass synchros for daily drivers and carbon-carbon or carbon-fiber synchros for racing.

There are also sintered-composite synchros.

There are also Kevlar reinforced cellulose synchros.

You need to do some research and identify the material involved before a clear answer can be given.
I would have been surprised at plastic sychros ... until I saw the plastic camshaft on the Honda OHC mower engines. I've had one for almost 20 years now and it's still running fine.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
the manufacturer specs a 7 cst fluid. The same fluid is specced in the manual and the dual clutch transmission.

The manual transmissions seem to work better with the thicker castrol fluid.
Jetronic said:
Problems are there from new usually, they don't get better or worse with age.

I'll try to find the redline 75w85, but it's rarer than hen's teeth here.


It is not unusual to see a respec of the MT fluid after the transmissions get into service. It could be the fluid was speced on a computer and not from fleet testing.

Redline is available from Redline directly or through Amazon.
 
I meant the material for the synchronizers is not metal, and looks like plastic.

They're likely carbon-fiber synchro's though.

Would traditional AW/EP chemistry work on this type of synchro's like they do on solid brass?
 
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