Why would you run HPL Engine Cleaner if you see NO VARNISH on the Rocker Arm?
Pick an HPL oil for me.
- Thread starter Rust_Belt_Pete
- Start date
Insurance? Because my variable valve timing mechanism is powered by oil and is very sensitive to debris?
I'd follow @SubieRubyRoo and do 5w30 Euro or No VII Euro.
Short trips in brutal cold to me means fuel dilution and I'd prefer some NO VII goodness for that particular form of abuse.
Short trips in brutal cold to me means fuel dilution and I'd prefer some NO VII goodness for that particular form of abuse.
Why would NO VARNISH be a requirement to run a good oil, regardless of engine type or mechanical condition?
The OP said he saw no Varnish and he wanted to run the HPL Engine Cleaner which is not necessary. The OP can easily use whatever HPL Engine Oil he chooses to use.
Whoops, missed that. Varnish at the rocker arm isn’t the only place the EC will clean up, but since every single HPL oil is technically an engine cleaner, I agree he would not need to run EC mixed with an inferior oil prior to switching to full HPL.
I would, however, still change & cut the oil filters at say every 5k to check for what’s being cleaned, and run a UOA every 5k til one determines the change point. Like with mine, I ran ~16k on the No VII Euro 5w30 and the results were excellent for the mileage & usage, so now I can cut way back on the frequency of my UOAs unless consumption or dipstick level changes dramatically.
My vote is premium plus 0w30; I run it as well.
Took a quick picture.
I switched to HPL at 31k miles on my truck, it still managed to find something to clean up. Van was the same way, looked clean but the filter ended up with a bunch of carbon looking stuff in it.
That being said, I’m running HPL 0w30 Supercar in ALL my stuff. Generator, truck, van, golf kart, and lawnmower.
Curious what the starting TBN for each are. Spec sheet on the website just shows >11 for both. HTHS is nearly identical, but the Supercar has a slightly higher viscosity index.
It's much higher for either one of those than anything you'll be able to find on the shelf. SuperCar obviously has a higher VI due to its presence of some VIIs.... I can tell you at 14.4k, with E30 for a good portion of the OCI, through winter, the No VII Euro still came back with a 7.78 TBN, which is as high as many shelf oils start at these days. Dave W himself said the TBN in the No VII is higher than SuperCar, but didn't say by how much... but he did say if one is interested in really, really long OCIs the No VII will retain reserve TBN longer.
Obviously all other indicators in a UOA should be respected as well, but this should allow more time in service before TAN crosses TBN if all things are equal.
I recently posted a uoa of their regular PCMO 5W40 I ran for 10k. TBN on that was still over 10. I threw in Supercar 0w30, & am just a little over 3k miles on it. I'm thinking about running it over 10k based on my last report even though it is a 30 grade instead of a 40.It's much higher for either one of those than anything you'll be able to find on the shelf. SuperCar obviously has a higher VI due to its presence of some VIIs.... I can tell you at 14.4k, with E30 for a good portion of the OCI, through winter, the No VII Euro still came back with a 7.78 TBN, which is as high as many shelf oils start at these days. Dave W himself said the TBN in the No VII is higher than SuperCar, but didn't say by how much... but he did say if one is interested in really, really long OCIs the No VII will retain reserve TBN longer.
Obviously all other indicators in a UOA should be respected as well, but this should allow more time in service before TAN crosses TBN if all things are equal.
I believe their PCMOs have an even higher TBN than the Euro's... IIRC the PCMO shows >13.5 TBN for No VII d1G3 equivalent, and 11 for the Euro. However, the Euro add pack is more robust according to HPL.
TBN is considered a relic though now. You have to look at oxidation changes and consider TBN/TAN crossover although that too is suspect. It's entire picture.
I'd be much more concerned about movement in oxidation value than TBN drop.
"A lot of folks misunderstand the logic for putting over-based metallic detergents in oil (the stuff that largely gives an oil its TBN & the bulk of its Ash). It has almost nothing to do with 'cleaning' or high sulphur fuels. The first 5 TBN is usually there for rust prevention as defined by the Ball Rust Test. This might get raised to about 8 TBN to neutralise the complex carboxylic acids that form when base oils oxidise as they get exposed to hot, reactive blow-by gas. Typically 8 TBN is way too much for oil in normal service but it would definitely all get used up in the severe industry oxidation tests like the Sequence IIIG.
There's no harm in buying oils with 10+ TBN but TBH, there's not a lot of benefit to be gained either. The fact is that modern base oils (Groups II/III/IV/V) are massively more resistant to oxidation than old fashioned Group Is. If they're not breaking down, then there's nothing for the detergent to neutralise, so any excess just sits in the oil, doing naff all, until it's time to throw the oil away."
"One other thing... Most folks would consider an engine oil to be shot when the TBN reaches 2 - 3. This isn't actually the case. An oil can function quite happily with a TBN of zero. The thing you have to remember is that oil formulators don't tend to focus directly on stuff like TBN depletion, acid formation or oil oxidation. What they're really concerned with is the onset of exponential viscosity increase. For many of the lengthy, industry standard engine based oxidation tests, it's both impractical and uneconomic to just use over based detergent to control oxidation. Given how fast it can deplete, you might need an oil with a starting TBN of around 20 to keep the TBN above 2 at the end of the test! For this reason, modern oils contain a cocktail of various Antioxidant chemistries, each of which plays a role in keeping the oil from 'breaking' long after the TBN reserve has been exhausted. Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong per se with changing out your oil when the TBN hits 2 - 3 but if you do a UOA, and find the oil's TBN is zero, it's not something to freak out about."
I'd be much more concerned about movement in oxidation value than TBN drop.
"A lot of folks misunderstand the logic for putting over-based metallic detergents in oil (the stuff that largely gives an oil its TBN & the bulk of its Ash). It has almost nothing to do with 'cleaning' or high sulphur fuels. The first 5 TBN is usually there for rust prevention as defined by the Ball Rust Test. This might get raised to about 8 TBN to neutralise the complex carboxylic acids that form when base oils oxidise as they get exposed to hot, reactive blow-by gas. Typically 8 TBN is way too much for oil in normal service but it would definitely all get used up in the severe industry oxidation tests like the Sequence IIIG.
There's no harm in buying oils with 10+ TBN but TBH, there's not a lot of benefit to be gained either. The fact is that modern base oils (Groups II/III/IV/V) are massively more resistant to oxidation than old fashioned Group Is. If they're not breaking down, then there's nothing for the detergent to neutralise, so any excess just sits in the oil, doing naff all, until it's time to throw the oil away."
"One other thing... Most folks would consider an engine oil to be shot when the TBN reaches 2 - 3. This isn't actually the case. An oil can function quite happily with a TBN of zero. The thing you have to remember is that oil formulators don't tend to focus directly on stuff like TBN depletion, acid formation or oil oxidation. What they're really concerned with is the onset of exponential viscosity increase. For many of the lengthy, industry standard engine based oxidation tests, it's both impractical and uneconomic to just use over based detergent to control oxidation. Given how fast it can deplete, you might need an oil with a starting TBN of around 20 to keep the TBN above 2 at the end of the test! For this reason, modern oils contain a cocktail of various Antioxidant chemistries, each of which plays a role in keeping the oil from 'breaking' long after the TBN reserve has been exhausted. Just to be clear, there's nothing wrong per se with changing out your oil when the TBN hits 2 - 3 but if you do a UOA, and find the oil's TBN is zero, it's not something to freak out about."
HPL recommends the cleaner oil as a pre-req to using their products. It provides less cleaning properties than their motor oil...just a straight weight oil with a bit more additive is really all it is. There is no reason to not use it for the first fill.
Some of these quotes sure sound highly conflicting, buster. I’m not an chemical engineer nor do I pretend to play one on TV even after a stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but:
5 TBN is there for rust prevention, but an oil will happily function at 0 TBN??
And yes, we know ashless detergents don’t give comparable TBN numbers compared to those that do produce ash thanks to a Chevron white paper many years ago shared by @dustyrhoads.
However, we also know HPL have talked at length about their antioxidant levels in addition to just TBN and other differences in their approaches, including that they know about and plan for a gradual increase in viscosity over time in use. While it may be true that some of the longtime tests have changed in the magnitude of their importance when compared to historical norms, those tests have also been supplemented by tests like PDSC & KRL which give much deeper insight into an oil’s total performance even above and beyond some of the newer standardized tests.
They may be. They're from SonofJoe. Lubrication Explained and LSJ also agree. However this wasn't a knock against HPL or Amsoil SS. The point I was making is that I would not focus on TBN too much. In the grand scheme of things it's not that important.Some of these quotes sure sound highly conflicting, buster. I’m not an chemical engineer nor do I pretend to play one on TV even after a stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but:
5 TBN is there for rust prevention, but an oil will happily function at 0 TBN??
And yes, we know ashless detergents don’t give comparable TBN numbers compared to those that do produce ash thanks to a Chevron white paper many years ago shared by @dustyrhoads.
However, we also know HPL have talked at length about their antioxidant levels in addition to just TBN and other differences in their approaches, including that they know about and plan for a gradual increase in viscosity over time in use. While it may be true that some of the longtime tests have changed in the magnitude of their importance when compared to historical norms, those tests have also been supplemented by tests like PDSC & KRL which give much deeper insight into an oil’s total performance even above and beyond some of the newer standardized tests.
You could argue that the excess reserve built in is a safety measure for when the oil does oxidize and becomes acidic.
If oil A has a starting TBN of 6 and drops to 1 but has no oxidation, low TAN and low wear metals, then TBN is irrelevant. If oil B has a 13 TBN to start and drops to 6 but has oxidation and higher TAN/wear metals, then I'd say oil B is in worse shape.
Some oils are already using next gen detergents so high TBN won't be common in those oils. (M1 0w40 X4).
