Petro Canada 0w20 and 0w30

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
FWIW, and I may be wrong on this since it's been so long, but as I recall from my flying days, we almost always used MIL-L-23699 oil for our jet engines, but there was an alt spec I don't remember for when the temps went below either -40 or -60C. I don't know what this stuff was, but it must have been pretty special to stay pumpable that cold, and protect a superhot jet engine while running. Obviously, SOME oil can do this.


The lower temperature jet engine oil is MIL-PRF-7808, which is designed to start at -60F as opposed to the -40 capability of the 23699 oil. Virtually all of the 7808 oil used by the military came from Hatco, as did most of the 23699. The 23699 has a viscosity of 5 cSt @ 100C and a typical pour point of -70F, while the 7808 has a viscosity of 3 cSt @ 100C and a pour point typically below -80F. Both are lighter than a 0W-10 and based entirely on POEs.

The 7808 oil is used mainly by the US Air Force since they operate bases in Arctic regions. This is changing, however, because a recent Air Force study found that the temperatures at these bases really don't go below about -40, and the fuel won't pump below -40 either. The Air Force is now working on a new specification for a single 5 cSt oil suitable for all of the armed forces.

Tom NJ

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
BTW, here's what it looked like when it arrived:

Darn cool pics. Thanks for that!

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
EOM really 'weakened' XD-3 when they moved it to SM/CJ chemistry - it was a 12 TBN oil before!


addyguy, take a look at this recently posted UOA for the 'weakened' XD-3:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1913308&page=1

These wear #s are very good. I don't think we need to worry anymore about the new CJ-4 formulation for XD-3.

And seeing this has convinced me to give XD 0W30 a go in my GM DI engine next OCI.

 

[va3ux]

Was just reading through the Petro Canada 2009 Lubricants Handbook.

2009 Petro Canada Lubricants Handbook

In addition to the Duron E being discussed in this thread, have a look at the Petro-Canada Turbo Synthetic 5W30 on page 50, and especially the Duron XL Synthetic Blends on page 56.

There's a good summary of all the specs in the table on page 58.

 

[21Rouge]

va3ux, thanks very much for this resource! I will post re some details I have seen while doing a quick skim through.

 

[Oldswagon]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
As far as the XD-3 goes:

Originally Posted By: Esso
ESSO XD-3 EXTRA CJ-4 is manufactured from
high quality petroleum base stocks, carefully
blended with selected additives. As with all
petroleum products, good personal hygiene and
careful handling should always be practiced.


Code:


XD-3 Extra 0W-40

Density kg/m3 843

Kinematic Viscosity, cSt

@ 40°C 87

@ 100°C 15.2

Viscosity Index 186

CCS Viscosity, P

@ -35°C 57

MRV LPT, (°C at 60,000 cP) -46

MRV Viscosity, P

@ -35°C 93

@ -40°C 213

Pour Point, °C -45

Flash Point, COC, °C 215

Colour, (ASTM) 4

TAN (D 664) 2.4

TBN (D 2896) 7.7

Sulphated Ash, wt. % 0.99


vs

Code:


DURON-E SYN 0W-40

Flash Point, °C / °F: 221 / 430

Kinematic Viscosity cSt @ 40°C / SUS @ 100°F: 88.7 / 450.14

Kinematic Viscosity cSt @ 100°C / SUS @ 210°F: 15.0 / 79.59

Viscosity Index: 179

High Temp/High Shear Viscosity, cP @ 150°C: 4.04

Cold Cranking Viscosity cP @ -35°C / -31°F: 5548

Pour Point °C / °F: < -66 / < -87

Pumping Viscosity cP @ -40°C / -40°F: 26,940

Sulphated Ash, % wt: 1.0

Sulphur, %: 0.369

Phosphorus, %: 0.109

Total Base Number (TBN), mg KOH /g: 8.11



The Petro Can has a higher TBN, higher flash point and lower pour point.....


You're getting too caught up with pour point. What really matters is the cold cranking viscosity. If you compare the XD-3 at -40 vs the Duron, XD-3 beats it hands down. The XD-3 21,300 cP at -40 vs the 26,940 cP for the Duron. So even though the "pour point" is lower, at -40C the XD-3 is less viscous and which means your engine will turn over easier.

Also more relevant on cold weather performance is MRV LPT, which is the temperature at which point the oil vicosity reaches 60,000 cP, geneally the coldest temp you'd want to use this oil at. From what you've list, Duron doesn't list these numbers. Esso does, -46 C for 0W40 an -48 C for 0W30.

IMHO, the difference in flash point, TBN and cranking viscosity is fairly small. Both are excellent cold weather oils. I have run XD-3 0W30 for the last 5 years and so no reason to change oils (even with the newer "weakened" formula). Unlike the majority on this board I have actually run this oil in cold weather. Last winter I started my truck (sitting outside) at -42 C without any problems using XD-3 oil. My 220 K mile 350 doesn't cosume any oil even at +30 C running this oil while working hard.

FWIW, XD-3 is actually a Canadian product and is only available in Canada. The Petro numbers aren't enough to cause me to switch and I am sure the prices are comparable (Esso is about 1/2 the price of regualr syns). In addition, my Esso bulk dealer is great to deal with and only 10 mins from home.

 

[21Rouge]

Originally Posted By: va3ux
have a look at the Petro-Canada Turbo Synthetic 5W30 on page 50,


It is my understanding that this oil i.e PC Turbo was discontinued a couple of years ago

.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Oldswagon

Also more relevant on cold weather performance is MRV LPT, which is the temperature at which point the oil vicosity reaches 60,000 cP, geneally the coldest temp you'd want to use this oil at. From what you've list, Duron doesn't list these numbers. Esso does, -46 C for 0W40 an -48 C for 0W30.


I agree, this is important, and I think both oils are very comparable.

Now, interestingly enough, and I'm not sure how these two things relate but:

1. Pour point for the XD-3 is -45
2. MRV LPT @ 60,000CP is -46

So the pour point is 1 degree higher than the MRV LPT.

How does this translate to the insane pour point of the Duron-E 0w40?

 

[Oldswagon]

I noticed that as well. My only explaination is maybe the way each company is calculating pour points is different. Perhaps there is some a sujective aspect to pour points? Does anyone know if there is a standardized method?

In any case, we do know that the vicosty caluculations are completely objective and which is why I put more worth in those values.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Oldswagon
I noticed that as well. My only explaination is maybe the way each company is calculating pour points is different. Perhaps there is some a sujective aspect to pour points? Does anyone know if there is a standardized method?

In any case, we do know that the vicosty caluculations are completely objective and which is why I put more worth in those values.


I will pose the question to Petro Canada and see!

 

[va3ux]

Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: va3ux
have a look at the Petro-Canada Turbo Synthetic 5W30 on page 50,


It is my understanding that this oil i.e PC Turbo was discontinued a couple of years ago

.


That's a shame. I'd be 'up' for a case of that if it was still available.

 

[mauric3]

Sorry to bring up an old topic.. I just wanted to get an update about the PC 0w20? How is it when compared to PP 0w20 , Castrol 0w20, Mobil1 0w20?

Would the Mazda 0w20 with Moly be a good choice as well?

My local mazda dealership carries PC 0w20 for their bulk oil... Just wanted to know if PC 0w20 would be a good oil for the 2.5L skykactiv engine or should i go for maybe Mobil1 or PP 0w20?

PC 0w20 apparently has VI 168, TBN at 7.9 and Pour point at -48 degrees celcius

 

[CATERHAM]

Your best choice would be TGMO 0W-20 unless you can pick-up some Idemitsu made US Mazda 0W-20 in the States.
Either way TGMO is a bit cheaper.

 

[mauric3]

Thanks Caterham! Should I just avail the free oil change then use tgmo 0w20 afterwards or should I just buy tgmo 0w20 and still get free labor for oil change?

I think the tgmo 0w20 here locally is around 6 to 7 bucks a liter. Is that a decent price and worth spending on?

 

[mauric3]

Also, im running my FF on my mazda3 to almost 8k km.. is that ok or should i have drained it earlier?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: mauric3
Should I just avail the free oil change then use tgmo 0w20 afterwards or should I just buy tgmo 0w20 and still get free labor for oil change?

I think the tgmo 0w20 here locally is around 6 to 7 bucks a liter. Is that a decent price and worth spending on?

Wouldn't that be a hoot taking in some liters of TGMO to a Mazda dealer to use instead of the free PC 0W-20!!
But seriously, the PC 0W-20 is a good oil. The main advantage of TGMO is that it's lighter, primarily on start-up. So take advantage of the free PC oil, but go with TGMO when you have to buy the oil for yourself.

Yes I've heard they charge about a buck/L more for TGMO out west, I guess to cover the shipping charges, but that's still a good deal.

8k on the FF is fine.

 

[mauric3]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: mauric3
Should I just avail the free oil change then use tgmo 0w20 afterwards or should I just buy tgmo 0w20 and still get free labor for oil change?

I think the tgmo 0w20 here locally is around 6 to 7 bucks a liter. Is that a decent price and worth spending on?

Wouldn't that be a hoot taking in some liters of TGMO to a Mazda dealer to use instead of the free PC 0W-20!!
But seriously, the PC 0W-20 is a good oil. The main advantage of TGMO is that it's lighter, primarily on start-up. So take advantage of the free PC oil, but go with TGMO when you have to buy the oil for yourself.

Yes I've heard they charge about a buck/L more for TGMO out west, I guess to cover the shipping charges, but that's still a good deal.

8k on the FF is fine.


Ya i'm getting my first service for free

So i guess ill observe how the 2.5L skyactiv will perform with the PetroCan 0w20

So on my next service, are you saying that i should just buy TGMO 0w20 and just pay for labor instead of letting them put PC 0w20?

 

[CATERHAM]

I see, so only the first oil change is free.
If you aren't a DIU'er then I'd also get a price from a Toyota/Lexus dealer for them to change your oil. You'll have to bring your own oil filter but you'll get a credit for that.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Your best choice would be TGMO 0W-20 unless you can pick-up some Idemitsu made US Mazda 0W-20 in the States.
Either way TGMO is a bit cheaper.

Since mazda is recommending 0w-20 and your favorite grade is 0w-20 as well, do you have any comparative results of fuel savings when using 0w-20 instead of a 0w-30 oil ?

Does the 0w-30 practically have less flow behavior than the 0w-20 oil ?

 

[mauric3]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I see, so only the first oil change is free.
If you aren't a DIU'er then I'd also get a price from a Toyota/Lexus dealer for them to change your oil. You'll have to bring your own oil filter but you'll get a credit for that.


We didn't get those lifetime oil changes packages

Car is still bnew ... i think it would be better to still bring it to mazda dealership since its still under warranty.. Also, i would be more aware of the service bulletin if i bring it to mazda..

I think my local mazda dealership charges $30 for labor for doing oil change if i bring in my own oil + cost of the oil filter... Still researching what's the best oil filter for the 2.5L skyactiv engine...