Penzoil 5w30 twice the noack volatility of 10w30

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
Messages
3,743
Location
Massachusetts
I don't get why the NOACK ( the amount the oil cooks down ) matters. I doubt we have any oils these days that will continue to thicken to an unusable state. I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
19,528
Location
Lake Forest, CA
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
This leaves me to wonder,are thicker oils best for high rpm apps?
Yes, thicker oil is better for higher RPM operation for long period of time. The reason is higher RPM would increase oil temperature than normal operating temperature. Shannon did post a temperature chart showing oil temp increase substantial at 5-6k RPM from normal 2-3k RPM, after some good distance.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
4,392
Location
Connecticut
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
I consider the PP and QSUD synthetics in the 30 grade a bit weak for an LS-1 that is driven spirited at times.
Yes, I am finding this out the hard way on my current fill/OCI. frown I don't know if it is the low SAPS, the GTL base stock, lower grade VIIs (to get it's 0W rating and 204 VI??) or something else, but this oil does NOT 'like' even brief excursions into the upper RPM range. It is supposedly a 3.5 or greater HTHSV Euro formula, but the oil pressure is acting like a thinned out 0W-20 right now, after a ~10 minute "Italian Tune-Up" on the highway @5000-5200 RPM. Could it have sheared down that radically, and aerated that badly (the oil pressure gauge was bouncing down lower than it has EVER been since owning this car new at stop light idles after this highway run) just from this short high(er) rev use??? ??? I am ready to dump this stuff and put in Red Line 0W-40, or 300V 0W-40, winter ambients (IF we ever actually get them) be D***ED!
It wouldn't surprise me on that new 0w-30 LX Pennzoil. Their 0w-40 SRT oil has a TDS of 13.7 vis @100C but gets nowhere near that on either VOA's or 500-1500 mile UOA's. If "13.7" can drop to 12.2-12.4 out of the bottle and to mid-11's after 1,000 miles, it's just a 30 weight. I've been using M1 5w-30 for 3 years with no problems (vis of 11.0). But the mileage doesn't exceed 1500 between OCI's and rpms rarely go above 4250. Next 2-3 oil changes will be with M1 0w-40 and PP 5w-40 Euro...though I probably don't need them. But, I plan to "try" and run the car harder...lol.
 
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
2,587
Location
TX
I dont know anything about NOACK and i refuse to even care about it. There are 4 LS1 powered cars in my immediate family and all but one of them has had M1 their entire existence. Someone posted that PYB would be fine for this engine. Uh....im still scratchin my head on that one. Run whatever name brand synthetic you want since the LS1 required a synthetic oil. Most synthetics say on the bottle if they still meet the GM4718 spec but GM technically says anything dexos approved is good enough now. We use 5W-30 all year, although 10w-30 wouldnt hurt/help anything. Dont overthink it.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,602
Location
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
How do you determine this?
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
43,661
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't get why the NOACK ( the amount the oil cooks down ) matters. I doubt we have any oils these days that will continue to thicken to an unusable state. I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
It's main intent is to determine the likelihood of contaminating pollution control devices, e.g. catalysts, and it simulated the temperatures found in the ring belt, and cylinder walls. So it's relevant, and also gives you a bit of an idea on whether the oil is formulated with lighter base-stocks and fortified with polymers. The test has some repeatability issues, and is likely to be replaced with better phophorous transport tests...but it's not irrelevant. And the OP's question is entirely relevant to his concerns. BTW, how do you determine which wears better ? Sequence IV, or some other test ?
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Messages
9,614
Location
Pennsylbammyvania
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
I consider the PP and QSUD synthetics in the 30 grade a bit weak for an LS-1 that is driven spirited at times.
Yes, I am finding this out the hard way on my current fill/OCI. frown I don't know if it is the low SAPS, the GTL base stock, lower grade VIIs (to get it's 0W rating and 204 VI??) or something else, but this oil does NOT 'like' even brief excursions into the upper RPM range. It is supposedly a 3.5 or greater HTHSV Euro formula, but the oil pressure is acting like a thinned out 0W-20 right now, after a ~10 minute "Italian Tune-Up" on the highway @5000-5200 RPM. Could it have sheared down that radically, and aerated that badly (the oil pressure gauge was bouncing down lower than it has EVER been since owning this car new at stop light idles after this highway run) just from this short high(er) rev use??? ??? I am ready to dump this stuff and put in Red Line 0W-40, or 300V 0W-40, winter ambients (IF we ever actually get them) be D***ED!
Try changing out the Fram Ultra filter to a Bosch Premium. I changed from a Fram Ultra to the Bosch Premium a couple of oil changes ago, and the oil pressure went up.
I DID change out the Ultra to an Amsoil EaO 64. The needle on the gauge STILL 'twitches' well below where it was with ANY other oil/mix I have ever used, at hot idle. WHAT are the symptoms of a worn (gear teeth?) gerotor type LSx oil pump, or of a broken/worn spring in the pump's pressure relief valve?? How likely is it (given the engine's mileage) that my Italian Tune- Up hurt the pump, or the relief valve?
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
43,661
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
This leaves me to wonder,are thicker oils best for high rpm apps?
Yes, thicker oil is better for higher RPM operation for long period of time. The reason is higher RPM would increase oil temperature than normal operating temperature. Shannon did post a temperature chart showing oil temp increase substantial at 5-6k RPM from normal 2-3k RPM, after some good distance.
This one ???
 

SR5

Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
6,618
Location
Down Under
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
This leaves me to wonder,are thicker oils best for high rpm apps?
Yes, thicker oil is better for higher RPM operation for long period of time. The reason is higher RPM would increase oil temperature than normal operating temperature. Shannon did post a temperature chart showing oil temp increase substantial at 5-6k RPM from normal 2-3k RPM, after some good distance.
This one ???
This graph obviously shows the temp increase with RPM, just one question, the temps on the left & right vertical axis, what (or where) exactly are they referring to? They don't quite match up.
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
Messages
3,743
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't get why the NOACK ( the amount the oil cooks down ) matters. I doubt we have any oils these days that will continue to thicken to an unusable state. I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
It's main intent is to determine the likelihood of contaminating pollution control devices, e.g. catalysts,
That doesn't concern me at all. I run oils with over 2200 zinc and phos.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
12,968
Location
Northern Kentucky
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I don't get why the NOACK ( the amount the oil cooks down ) matters. I doubt we have any oils these days that will continue to thicken to an unusable state. I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
It's main intent is to determine the likelihood of contaminating pollution control devices, e.g. catalysts,
That doesn't concern me at all. I run oils with over 2200 zinc and phos.
That's too much, not giving you any extra AW layer, just longer lasting and more corrosive (This from the Pennzoil experience with the Shell chemist) The API SL limits are more than enough like M1 HM 10w30.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
43,661
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: SR5
This graph obviously shows the temp increase with RPM, just one question, the temps on the left & right vertical axis, what (or where) exactly are they referring to? They don't quite match up.
The numbers on the RHS are the bulk oil supply temperature for the test. I've been told that there is no frictional temperature rise across the bearings by one who posits a lot of such nonsense. So even an 80C oil supply temperature left the big ends at over 90C at 2,000RPM, and 130+ at 5,000. Clearly oil temperature and pressure are telling you ABSOLUTELY nothing about what's going on at the big end.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
23,602
Location
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I tend to ignore useless specs like this and concentrate on how the oil protects against wear.
BTW, how do you determine which wears better ? Sequence IV, or some other test ?
Why is it that you always ignore serious questions turtlevette? I mean I know the answer why, I just want you to say it.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Messages
9,614
Location
Pennsylbammyvania
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So even an 80C oil supply temperature left the big ends at over 90C at 2,000RPM, and 130+ at 5,000. Clearly oil temperature and pressure are telling you ABSOLUTELY nothing about what's going on at the big end.
IF the above is truly the case/reality, then some straight Motul 300V Trophy, or Red Line 0W-40 is going into the sump!!
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
43,661
Location
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
IF the above is truly the case/reality, then some straight Motul 300V Trophy, or Red Line 0W-40 is going into the sump!!
True, the oil temperature increases as the oil flows through the bearings primarily do to the shearing work that the engine does against the lubricant. In my Caprice, I can drop a thermocouple down the dipstick hole after shut down and measure the oil temperatures in the drain back area. After a 15-20 minute commute (highway speeds) it's 105C (sump wall 90-95)...hold it in "2" bringing the revs up to 4,000 RPM for 10 minutes, and the oil temperature has cracked 135C. Exactly the same power requirement to drive the car through the air at 100km/hour, just more revs pumps more heat into the oil. If you look around the net, you can find that the majority of the heat in a big end is frictional between the oil and the bearing/journal. Couple of other pics that demonstrate similar...from a paper on warm-up times. I agree with CATERHAM up to a point...his oil pressure testing IS giving a high shear viscosity reference...he can correlate HTHS to oil pressure, and that's correct, as the main bearings in his testing ARE in a high shear region. But it doesn't tell you anything about how hot/thin the oil is in the big ends.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
10,631
Location
Virginia
What if one punches their car from 2k rpm to 5500 rpm for just several seconds?? And the car has been run on the road for just 5 minutes prior to doing this. I'm very sure the oil temp would obviously spike quite a bit ( say 130°C ) under this increased load. Question I have is how long would it take for it to come back down to around 100°C ?? How much shearing would doing this cause?? How soon would a 30 grade drop down to a 20 operating viscosity??
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2013
Messages
3,743
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: bbhero
What if one punches their car from 2k rpm to 5500 rpm for just several seconds?? And the car has been run on the road for just 5 minutes prior to doing this. I'm very sure the oil temp would obviously spike quite a bit ( say 130°C ) under this increased load. Question I have is how long would it take for it to come back down to around 100°C ?? How much shearing would doing this cause?? How soon would a 30 grade drop down to a 20 operating viscosity??
A few seconds of high rpm wot is not going to cause an oil temp spike. You'd need more like a minute. And the larger sumps are less sensitive to temp spikes. That's why you see performance cars with 8qt sumps.
 

SR5

Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
6,618
Location
Down Under
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SR5
This graph obviously shows the temp increase with RPM, just one question, the temps on the left & right vertical axis, what (or where) exactly are they referring to? They don't quite match up.
The numbers on the RHS are the bulk oil supply temperature for the test. I've been told that there is no frictional temperature rise across the bearings by one who posits a lot of such nonsense. So even an 80C oil supply temperature left the big ends at over 90C at 2,000RPM, and 130+ at 5,000. Clearly oil temperature and pressure are telling you ABSOLUTELY nothing about what's going on at the big end.
Thanks mate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top