PC Supreme has a really low pour point!

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33
Location
Montreal, Canada
Hi, just curious, how do Petro-Canada achieve a -45c has a pour point for a 5w20 conventional oil? It is as good as synthetic oil. Even the Cold Cranking Viscosity at -30c is relly low. Datasheet
 
Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
VI of only 153 means it's average for dino oil. The pour point is only 3c lower than PYB: http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007054913_201202271120.pdf CCS vis is quite a bit better though, so it probably has some Group3 basestock mixed in. It must have at least 20% to be legally called a synth blend so maybe this has 10-15% Group3. Since PC markets mostly to colder countries like Canada & Russia, it makes sense for them to tweak the low temp performance. It's still not as good as a full synth 5w20 though, PC's own 5w20 full synth has a pour point of -48c and CCS vis of 3570: http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/resour...amp;language=en
 
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13,934
Location
Kendall, FL
HK... For a 5w20, a VI of 153 seems on the high end for a conventional, no? Can you share where the information concerning what % constitutes entry into the world of blends can be found? I never heard this before. Not being sarcastic either.
 
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Tiboi

Thread starter
Messages
33
Location
Montreal, Canada
Yeah, a very good dino oil for winter. That could be the reason why Honda dealers in Canada are using PC oil. Synthetic oil being the best oil on the market, It is still surprising some cie are working on making dino oil that good. Is there any point apart from cost of making it? And would it be right to say they're using similar additives (detergents, anti-corrosion..) as synthetic oil?
 
Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
Nope, 153 is pretty average: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Feb2014/consolidated5w20ALL.html I don't remember where I read the 20% figure, but a quick google found this link that backs up that number: http://www.bronsautomotive.com/oil-change-intervals/ "Synthetic blend oil contains only 20% Synthetic oil and 80% regular oil in each quart. I do not personally use this type of oil, but if you do, use the same intervals as regular oil." Of course I'm sure that most good name brand blends are probably much higher than 20% though and maybe 20% isn't even the real minimum, oil marketing laws are so vague and hard to enforce.
Originally Posted By: wemay
HK... For a 5w20, a VI of 153 seems on the high end for a conventional, no? Can you share where the information concerning what % constitutes entry into the world of blends can be found? I never heard this before. Not being sarcastic either.
 
Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
Well PC is a very very small player in the PCMO market, so they have to find a good niche to sell to. Why choose a PC dino oil over the hundreds of others? Because it has good low temp performance. They are a huge petrochemical company so making the oil from scratch means their costs are lower than just blenders like Valvoline or Amsoil. This means they can probably afford to blend in some Group3 to enhance the low temp performance without sacrificing margins. Without any VOA, it's hard to judge the add pack for sure. But the relatively mediocre TBN of 7.9 on the full synth product indicates to me that PC's formula isn't that strong on detergents which is why you don't see any claims about cleaning better than other brands or guaranteed OCI mileage. Overall, if you can get PC synth for ~$5/L in 0w20 or ~$3/L for 5w20 dino then it's worth it IMO. If not, then it's better to get 0w20 from a Honda/Mazda/Toyota/Subaru dealership for ~$6/L which also has amazing cold performance and a higher TBN too.
Originally Posted By: Tiboi
Yeah, a very good dino oil for winter. That could be the reason why Honda dealers in Canada are using PC oil. Synthetic oil being the best oil on the market, It is still surprising some cie are working on making dino oil that good. Is there any point apart from cost of making it? And would it be right to say they're using similar additives (detergents, anti-corrosion..) as synthetic oil?
 
Messages
13,934
Location
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Nope, 153 is pretty average: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Feb2014/consolidated5w20ALL.html I don't remember where I read the 20% figure, but a quick google found this link that backs up that number: http://www.bronsautomotive.com/oil-change-intervals/ "Synthetic blend oil contains only 20% Synthetic oil and 80% regular oil in each quart. I do not personally use this type of oil, but if you do, use the same intervals as regular oil." Of course I'm sure that most good name brand blends are probably much higher than 20% though and maybe 20% isn't even the real minimum, oil marketing laws are so vague and hard to enforce.
Originally Posted By: wemay
HK... For a 5w20, a VI of 153 seems on the high end for a conventional, no? Can you share where the information concerning what % constitutes entry into the world of blends can be found? I never heard this before. Not being sarcastic either.
Of the 37 oils listed, it technically has a higher VI than 30 of them whistle , but if by avg you mean a few others also show in the 150-159 range, I see your point. Thanks for the link as well but, Brons Automotive inc. doesnt seem to be an authority in the industry of certification, formulation and/or blending. I have a hard time accepting a service center's word for it, on this matter at least.
 
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Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
1-2 VI difference is within margin of error, PC's document could also be inaccurate as are most other TDS from oil manufs. You also have to cut out all the less respectable brands in the PQIA chart for a fair comparison because there is still a difference between "top shelf" dino & bottom of the barrel dino. 153 VI for a dino is nothing special especially coming from PC's own TDS. If it was tested by PQIA and scored a 163 then I'll be impressed.
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Nope, 153 is pretty average: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Feb2014/consolidated5w20ALL.html I don't remember where I read the 20% figure, but a quick google found this link that backs up that number: http://www.bronsautomotive.com/oil-change-intervals/ "Synthetic blend oil contains only 20% Synthetic oil and 80% regular oil in each quart. I do not personally use this type of oil, but if you do, use the same intervals as regular oil." Of course I'm sure that most good name brand blends are probably much higher than 20% though and maybe 20% isn't even the real minimum, oil marketing laws are so vague and hard to enforce.
Originally Posted By: wemay
HK... For a 5w20, a VI of 153 seems on the high end for a conventional, no? Can you share where the information concerning what % constitutes entry into the world of blends can be found? I never heard this before. Not being sarcastic either.
Of the 37 oils listed, it technically has a higher VI than 30 of them whistle . Thanks for the link as well but, Brons Automotive inc. doesnt seem to be an authority in the industry of oil formulation and blending.
 
Messages
13,934
Location
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
1-2 VI difference is within margin of error, PC's document could also be inaccurate as are most other TDS from oil manufs. You also have to cut out all the less respectable brands in the PQIA chart for a fair comparison because there is still a difference between "top shelf" dino & bottom of the barrel dino.
That is a fair point.
 
Messages
13,934
Location
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Here's an old article from 04 by Thomas F. Glenn from Lubes 'N Greases magazine: http://www.synthetic-solutions.com/definitions.htm "Instead of the expected 50 percent, these blends typically may contain 10 to 20 percent Group III blended with 80 to 90 percent conventionally refined base stock."
I've seen that one before, thanks. My wondering is based more on current oils with dexos certification. The only oil that even advertises its % is Pennz Syn Blnd dexos. Its all still speculation I guess.
 
Messages
220
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Yep as jrustles said, Shell probably had an overstock of GTL base stock and was low on Group2 so they just mixed it in with some batches of dino.
Originally Posted By: babbittd
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
PYB's viscosity at -30c really stands out on that chart. Can that finding possibly be correct?
What you guys say is very interesting, especially when comparing the old PYB data sheet (from 2011 I think) to what PQIA found a few years later (a much lower number).
 
Messages
5,445
Location
MTL, CANADA
M1 0w20 both AFE and extended performance both have a pour point of -54F which is -47.7 celsius. Which is the same as the Petro in all grades except the 10w30. Plus the M1is cheaper (although i buy jugs in Plattsburgh for 22$ and change..)
 
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3,681
Location
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Overall, if you can get PC synth for ~$5/L in 0w20 or ~$3/L for 5w20 dino then it's worth it IMO. If not, then it's better to get 0w20 from a ..Mazda.. dealership for ~$6/L which also has amazing cold performance and a higher TBN too.
Mazda Canada 0W-20 oil is rebranded PC synthetic. Confirmed by Caterham. Bought the oil last fall, same bottle as on the PC website. It's not the high moly US Mazda oil.
 
Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
Oh I see, I thought Canadian dealers stocked the high moly Idemitsu stuff since most other Japanese dealers in Canada still use Idemitsu like Honda & Subaru.
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Overall, if you can get PC synth for ~$5/L in 0w20 or ~$3/L for 5w20 dino then it's worth it IMO. If not, then it's better to get 0w20 from a ..Mazda.. dealership for ~$6/L which also has amazing cold performance and a higher TBN too.
Mazda Canada 0W-20 oil is rebranded PC synthetic. Confirmed by Caterham. Bought the oil last fall, same bottle as on the PC website. It's not the high moly US Mazda oil.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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21,914
Location
Iowegia - USA
There three ways of reducing pour point. 1. Increase the percentage of low viscosity base oil and reduce the percentage of higher viscosity base oil in the mix, 2. Increasing the amount of Pour Point Depressant.
Quote:
Pour Point Depressant (Performance Additive): polymethacrylates (PMA's); reducing wax crystal formation and increases solvency of oil at low temperatures. May be part of VII package.
3. Adding a small amount of PAO of about 3.0 cSt to the mix. For mineral oils, item 2 is used. For blends, Items 1 and 3 are used. Commercial Motor Oil Additives
 
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Messages
553
Location
Toronto, Canada
Wouldn't it be cheaper for a oil company to just mix in some Group3 base to get the pour point down instead of buying Pour Point depressants? I've read that additives make up to 50% of the cost to manufacture an oil.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
There three ways of reducing pour point. 1. Increase the percentage of low viscosity base oil and reduce the percentage of higher viscosity base oil in the mix, 2. Increasing the amount of Pour Point Depressant.
Quote:
Pour Point Depressant (Performance Additive): polymethacrylates (PMA's); reducing wax crystal formation and increases solvency of oil at low temperatures. May be part of VII package.
3. Adding a small amount of PAO of about 3.0 cSt to the mix. For mineral oils, item 2 is used. For blends, Items 1 and 3 are used. Commercial Motor Oil Additives
 
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