P420 code 2002 Toyota Camry 4cyl

[GSCJR]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Whatever condition killed the original cat will kill the new one OE or aftermarket if it wasn't corrected.


This ^^^

Cats do not die, they get murdered.

 

[Danno]

Could be makings of a serial cat murderer ...

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
Originally Posted By: little bob
Unfortunately, NC is an emissions state for newer cars/trucks(div>


why not just clear the code right before you take it in to be inspected?


Won't set readiness codes, which is something else they check. The OBD system is always checking the components. But it may take x starts or y miles for it to be tested. So it won't set readiness codes until it is convinced all is well.

Otherwise everyone would do as you said! Lawmakers figured that out long ago, and the system is not so easily fooled. Lawmakers or oem's, I'm not sure which, but it doesn't matter. Kinda stuck fixing it.

 

[javacontour]

Yes, yet I think the Toyota algorithm to check on Catalyst Efficiency is a bit aggressive.

I have two 2002-2003 vintage Toyotas with the P0420 code right now. One has had it for the past 160K miles. The other just came on in the past few months.

The 250K+ car burns oil at startup, but the light came on 6+ years ago before it started consuming (burning and leaking). The other, no. They don't seem to be excessively rich. But maybe the kids (both 20+) are doing a lot of full throttle driving, getting into the rich portion of the ECM maps.

Frankly, since we don't have testing, I've told the kids as long as it's not flashing, they are good to go. I read the codes at every oil change to see if there are any new codes. I clear the P0420 and wait for it to return.

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Originally Posted By: Trav
Whatever condition killed the original cat will kill the new one OE or aftermarket if it wasn't corrected.


This ^^^

Cats do not die, they get murdered.

 

[Trav]

Checking the fuel trim is the first thing i would look at. Toyota's are notorious for PO420 codes.
If fuel trim is okay i would look at the new Walker Cal cat, it is made in a 49 shape also for NY.
It is superior to the standard aftermarket line and works well in these problem vehicles for longer than a couple of years. Eastern has a good one available also.

The regular WALKER rear cat Part # 55435 is $196 Rock Auto prices
The Cal cat WALKER rear cat Part # 82650 is $309 So its $100 more but its all in the washcoat.

If they used the cheap one its possibly the cause of the code.

 

[little bob]

Our mechanic has checked with AAP and they've agreed to a straight swap on the cat so all we'll have to do is pay for the labor. For the near term, this seems to be the best way to go since we may not keep the car for any great length of time. After research and talking with other mechanics, this seems to be a deliberate Toyota set-up. If they know that aftermarket cats will fail after 1+/- year, they can afford to gouge on their OEM cats which are about double in price.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: little bob
...... After research and talking with other mechanics, this seems to be a deliberate Toyota set-up. If they know that aftermarket cats will fail after 1+/- year, they can afford to gouge on their OEM cats which are about double in price.


LOL! I like reading conspiracies....

Q.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Barkleymut
why not just clear the code right before you take it in to be inspected?


Because the code will still be in the computer's code history. It takes 40 ignition cycles with the computer finding no issue before it will clear the code history.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Have you tried spark plug extenders on the post-cat O2 sensors?

It may get the sensor out of the stream enough to satisfy the computer, but still looks stock enough to pass most visual inspections.



Seems people would rather do things the hard and more expensive way. The extender would probably fix 90% of P420 codes, but people would rather replace a cat, and then have the same problem...

I have to wonder if it's legal for a shop to install one. Or the vehicle owner for the matter. "Tampering" and all. It's precisely what I'd do though.

Friend of mine put a large cap, like 470uF, across the rear O2 to "fix" this problem on a car he has. It "fixed" the problem and has worked for several years. I have to wonder if it'd go as far as to "fix" a hollowed out cat. IIRC the ECU is varying the O2 level, and making sure that the rear sensor doesn't see the same flucuation as the front sensor, so as to ensure operation of the cat.

 

[SHOZ]

Going through this with my sons 2009 4 cyl Chevy Malibu. His coils went bad and that fouled the OEM cat at 100k miles. We put on an aftermarket one from RockAuto and now he gets the 420 code. Cleared it last week and it didn't come back but I expect it too.

 

[ram_man]

Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Originally Posted By: Trav
Whatever condition killed the original cat will kill the new one OE or aftermarket if it wasn't corrected.


This ^^^

Cats do not die, they get murdered.



This isnt always true. Sometimes cats just fail but it's always good to check and make sure nothing else is damaging the cats

 

[Trav]

Other than mechanical damage eg broken substrate which was common on some cars like the VW or a rusted flange i have seen very few examples of an OE cat failing for no reason.
Thais not to say the problem still exist in the system, it could have been a misfire at some point or an dirty injector causing the ecm to dump more fuel that was corrected but damaged the cats efficiency.

I see many well maintained cars inc Toyota with 200K+ on them with the OE cat. The wash coat doesn't just fade away on a cat it has to be overheated of fouled for some reason.
Cheap aftermarket cats with a very thin wash coat are prone to early failure because they are barely good enough to satisfy the ecm out right out of the box.

 

[ram_man]

At my shop I've seen a couple Honda accords and one dodge truck. 95% of the time there's others reasons like you said but sometimes it can happen but its the exception not the rule for sure.

 

[wokeupdead]

IIRC Toyota had a run of bad OE catalysts around that time. Many "premature" Catalyst failures appeared. Not enough coating on them.

I have also seen many a GM catalyst failure of similar nature on Early-Mid 2000's Impalas and others.

I also agree that without external drivers, the catalyst lasts a long time. My 320000 mile V6 Camry has the original, although very weak. My 270000 mile Mustang 3.8 2000 has its originals.

 

[Trav]

Lots of defective OE cats were in service from many manufacturers, VW had huge problems with the cats just breaking into small pieces and plugging the muffler.
Nissan had a real fiasco with the 2.5 but these are not normal cats to begin with, they were defective right out of the box.

You wouldn't believe the amount of defective cats in the early 80's, there was even a way to change the pellets with a shop vac to make time on flat rate.
In those days Germany didn't have unleaded fuel so the US government allowed the servicemen to have the cat removed for use in Germany. It didn't help the O2 sensor though.

A lot of people accidentally kill their own O2's and subsequently the cats with silicone spray lubing stuff in the engine compartment and years ago not all silicone sealers were O2 safe.
The O2 going bad made the ecm dump fuel like crazy in some cases porking the cat.

Whenever i do a non functioning cat for any reason i check the fuel trims and clean or replace the injectors if necessary, replace the O2's change the oil, plugs and wires and check the misfire count (anything other than zero on all cyl through the whole RPM range is unacceptable.
This is done with the old cat either in the car if possible or removed before putting the new cat into service.

When the engine is started i run it 30 min at idle to solidify the bonding material used to bond the substrate to the metal case then let it cool a few hours before cutting it loose.
It takes more time and more $$ but they don't come back in a year or 2.
.

 

[little bob]

The cat was replaced earlier this week and no issues or codes so far. We plan to replace both the plugs and pcv this weekend which have been in for 50K. Mechanic said everything looked good on the scans after the cat replacement.

 

[wokeupdead]

Good to hear no problems with warranty.

I have fought aftermarket cats with recurring P0420 problems. Just not good enough most of the time for most vehicles. Then add in most on the east coast are now sold as California emissions or 50 state emissions rated, best option is for California legal catalyst when time to replace.